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The Patrol Rifle Concept

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Cosmoline, Apr 9, 2006.

  1. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline New Member

    My recent experimentations with the CZ-527 have got me thinking about what might be termed the "Patrol Rifle" concept. It's certainly not a new idea. The Winchester '92 in .44-40 was used extensively by police and paramilitary forces in North America. Even the Guardia Civil in Spain used one. The Spanish police in particular seemed to love the idea, and later adopted the 9mm Largo "Destroyer Carbine." The modern versions can be seen in the CZ-527 and the Remington 7600.

    These long arms tend to be classified as either carbines or rifles depending on whether they fire traditional rifle or traditional handgun amuntion. I think it might be useful to start thinking about them as their own class. Specifically, as a type of long arm of particular dimensions useful for home defense or police applications. Here's some general parameters:

    Cartridge: Sufficiently powerful to kill a man with a single shot out to 100 meters, not so powerful as to slow down followup shots or throw too large a flash. .223, .357 Magnum, 7.62x39, .30-30, possibly .308 at most.

    Weight: No greater than 6.5 lbs., preferably between 5 and 6 lbs.

    Barrel: 16 1/2" to 20"

    OAL: 35"-45"

    Balance: Barrel-light

    Sights: Iron or red dot

    Action: Pump, bolt, lever, or semi. No selective fire.

    Capacity: 5 to 15 preferable depending on cartridge type due to weight and balance considerations.

    Application: Law enforcement, home defense, brush hunting, or any other conditions where a longer rifle can be an impediment.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2006
  2. AStone

    AStone New Member

    I want this one.

    Not my highest priority,
    which is a Browning A-Bolt in 7mm08.

    But, given that the Rem 7600P is a pump,
    like my beloved 870P, yet available in both .308 & .223...
    well, that just says to me, fine gun.
  3. seeker_two

    seeker_two New Member

    Excellent topic, Cosmoline... :cool:

    I like the 7600/7615 concept, too. Too bad Remington charges $800+ each for them. :eek: (C'mon, guys. You can get a decent AR for that. Get competetive. For $800, you could do a matched pair of 7615 & 870...)

    Why not a semi-auto? I'm not just talking about AR's & AK's, but some other good ones also exist. I think the lightweight Browning BAR's would be a good choice, and the Benelli R1's wouldn't be so bad (esp. if more calibers/barrel lengths were offered).

    QUESTION: What should be the primary sighting system for a patrol rifle? (iron sights...1x red-dot/ACOG...scout scope...3x9 variable...)

    And should the perfect patrol rifle have iron sights as a backup?

    Let's get thinking, people... :D
  4. 355sigfan

    355sigfan member

    The patrol rifle concept in the LE world today is a semi auto 223 carbine. The reason for their use was made obvious by the LA Bank Robery. Active shooters are also a huge reason to have 223 carbines. You need a gun with limited over penetration and with high capacity that is easy to shoot. I just don't see levers, bolts or pumps doing this job very well. Get yourself a good Semi auto carbine a M4 type gun preferably.
  5. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden New Member

    I'm saving up for a Krebs Custom KTR-03S. Though I qualified as an expert every time with the M16A2 while I was in the Marine Corps, I never really got to like it. Never had any jamming or breaking problems or any other of the perceived ills of the design, it just doesn't feel good to me. For some reason, I took a liking to the AK design. I've not yet decided whether I'll order the Krebs in 7.62 or 5.45--both seem to have their adherents, and the Soviets did switch to the 5.45 for a reason...

    Aside from the action, this design meets all of your criteria.

  6. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline New Member

    Actually, as long as they are not selective fire a semi would fit fine. Indeed it's better IMHO to view them as "Patrol Rifles" than some sort of quasi "Assault Weapon." As it stands now we reject the classification of the AWB but we don't really have a classification to replace it.

    Actually, overepenetration is a function of bullet design, not cartridge type. Also, high capacity is only needed if you're going to use the firearm for military-style suppressive fire or the sort of marsh-clearing they do in Iraq. For legal reasons these aren't really on the table for LEO's or civilians. You could have a patrol rifle with a high cap, but you wouldn't really need it. OTOH Hague would be totally inapplicable, so the best bullets could be chosen for the arm. Early expanding HP's would resolve any overpentration concerns and add enormously to the lethality of the round.
  7. Foxtrot427

    Foxtrot427 New Member

    I bet youd do well with a M1 carbine
  8. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline New Member

    The M-1 carbine is borderline, due to its weak and restricted cartridge.
  9. chrisTx

    chrisTx New Member

    patrol rifle meets the 'one up' requirement. police always have to 'one up' the bad guy. he acts aggressive, you pull a taser or spray. he hits you, you pull a baton. he pulls a knife, you pull a pistol. he pulls a pistol, you pull a rifle. he pulls a rifle, you just be the better shot.
  10. rockstar.esq

    rockstar.esq New Member

    Seems like Remington's got a little price confusion going with the 7615 line. Asking that much for an innacurate rifle that's been in and out of their catalog under different guises for at least the last twenty years seems a little silly. As I see it, the main "improvement" they made was two fold. In the .223 they modified the magazine well to accept most AR type mags. This I think was a great idea. Now why didn't they do this with the .308? I fail to see why the AR-10 mag or the FAL mag couldn't have been fitted to the rifle thus making it more marketable to the "tactical" market. The second improvement was the addition of Wilson ghost ring sights. Finally a new rifle from Remington with Ghost rings as an option! Of course the next step into the heart of Blackticle craziness would be to make the forend some form of rail network allowing the "operator" the opportunity to mount a flashlight, laser, grenade launcher, and lawyers desk to it! As for the concept of a pistol caliber rifle, I hate to say it but I believe those day's are done. Cosmoline pointed out the sound arguements for using rifle ammo with appropriate bullet designs. Carrying that a step farther, the rifle cartridge has the advantage of being "point of aim" for a much wider range of distances thus reducing the chance of a miss and the associated liability. This is why many trainers teach "...use a handgun to fight your way to your rife..."
  11. .45Guy

    .45Guy New Member

    I suppose my deer rifle would fit the concept. 6 rounds of 7.62x39, weighs in at roughly 5 pounds, and is 36" OAL. Fairly accurate to boot.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2006
  12. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline New Member

    Yes, that's just the sort of thing. It is odd how so many rifles from different nations and different construction tend to move towards the same form. Your garage M-C looks like a Destroyer which looks like a CZ 527 which handles like a spikehorn which looks like a a short barrel '92. Form is following function over and over again. I'm suggesting we start recognizing the breed as something distinct.
  13. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    So, I'm hearing you mean to say

  14. Spec ops Grunt

    Spec ops Grunt New Member

    Winchester 1300 :neener:

    J/K A lever gun in 30 WCF would be perfect.
  15. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline New Member

    :D Don't start that argument again.
  16. lawson

    lawson New Member

    my new Marlin 1894C would fit the bill nicely. 9 shots of .357 Magnum and a red dot scope on a quick-release mount. 18.5" barrel, 36" OAL.
  17. kentucky_smith

    kentucky_smith New Member

    Light, 7.62x39, 16" barrel, now with tech-sights. Works for me.

  18. Bruuin

    Bruuin New Member

  19. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline New Member

    I'd actually classify the FN Patrol Rifle as a field sniper rifle. They use high powered optics and are accurized for precision shots. I also believe with a large scope they'd be too heavy.
  20. Spec ops Grunt

    Spec ops Grunt New Member

    A Springield 1903, Mauser 98, Mosin Nagant, Enfield, or M1 Garand would go good.

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