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The right thing to do?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Littlemac, Oct 29, 2009.

  1. Littlemac

    Littlemac New Member

    Nov 6, 2004
    I purchased a Colt Ar-15/22 thinking it would be the answer to have a dedicated .22 rifle. It is a POS. Lots of problems with it and I purchased a different brand which has not exhibited the same problems.

    Twice I have attempted to return it to the seller saying it was a POS and that I would like to get my bucks back. Twice he said no way- warranty issues were the responsibility of the Manufacturer, he would sent it in, but a refund was out of the questions (the owner).

    In the means time, his back office staff has contacted me saying that I filled out the wrong form (4473) and that I need to redo it, for their benefit. I asked them to refund my bucks, I would give them the rifle back and we would both be happy. But NOOOOOOOOO.

    I may be able to get a refund from my credit card company. So I will be made whole again.

    My question is What kind to trouble can this company get into for using the wrong form. I would think they would be on the hook for not have a firearm on their records and not having it on hand.
  2. billdeserthills

    billdeserthills Member

    Aug 4, 2006
    Well, as a gundealer myself, the only real punishment the ATF holds is their ability to take away this stores federal firearms license. I will also tell you that if my store sells you a gun & you decide you don't like it, we don't take it back either. Of course, if my choice lay between making you happy or losing my FFL, I guess you would be happy. I guess you don't know this, but the gunstore did not hire the dwarf to excavate the metal, nor the blacksmith to form said metal into your gun. I can't guess why you think it is the stores fault that the gun you bought doesn't make you happy, but I can tell you there is just one place, whose job is to make your gun work as promised. That place is called The Manufacturer. They will repair your gun to the specifications they advertised, and they will be happy to begin doing that just as soon as you get the gun delivered to them.
  3. Littlemac

    Littlemac New Member

    Nov 6, 2004
    So you just read I was unhappy with a gun. If the gun ran just fine, I would not try to get my bucks back. If the gun ran I would be happy. No harm, no foul.

    How about sharing where you store is? Just so you and I don't cross paths.

    I guess I did what the seller, wanted I parted with my bucks and he has them. Now I have a gun on which he has bad paperwork. You think that is a good trade? thanks for the feedback
  4. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Elder

    Jun 5, 2006
    In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine.
    It's kind of two questions. A: Are they required to take the gun back, and B: What obligation do you have to correct their paperwork AFTER the fact?

    A: Not really. Now, every time I've ever had a problem like this, they have tried to make it right. This is one reason I try to buy from a place with an in-house gunsmith, so that rather than face mailing it to the factory and waiting on a warranty claim, they will usually just grab the smith and ask him to give it a look. It's like when I was in the car business. People bring cars back with complaints all the time. According to the law, you can tell them to go bite a cactus. But what you WANT to do is give them warm fuzzies so that they will still tell their friends to come in. Is the gun under warranty, so that you can at least go through the tortuous process of sending it in for a warranty claim?

    B: Paperwork is a VERY hot subject these days. The B of ATF & E is very silly about it. This is why Wal-Mart has dropped guns from most of their stores. BATFE is so silly, they will come in, go through their books, and point out errors such as, the state abbreviation isn't capitalized, and fine them. $10,000 per error. I'm not exaggerating. Some Wal-Mart stores would get hammered for $50,000 or more twice a year, and big blue just decided it wasn't worth it anymore. When I buy a gun from my favorite retailer, I usually do TWO 4473s. One is the test template, where they go over all the punctuation and handwriting. Then the manager/owner looks it over. If everything is correct, they have me sign everything and it becomes official. If not, they shred it and we start over again. It's not uncommon for guys to get fired for screwing up 4473s. That form is a BIG deal to them.

    HERE'S AN IDEA. If it was me, I would go to them, and ask them; "Hey, I want to work with you here, keep everyone happy, let's take a look at the form, no problem. I understand that you can't just take the gun back, and it's ok. Would it be reasonable to ask you to ship the gun back to the factory for me for a warranty claim?" (Unless of course everyone is already too upset to look at it this way.)
  5. f4t9r

    f4t9r Senior Member

    May 27, 2005
    Most gun stores have a sign that reads firearm & ammo sales are final. Most will send the gun back for repair or replacement but not very often will you get a refund. They want the manufacturer to take care of the problem.
  6. Extremely Pro Gun

    Extremely Pro Gun Member

    May 13, 2009
    I would send it to colt... get it fixed.... and sell that piece of **** ASAP. Get a CMMG conversion for a real AR. I have heard great things.
  7. ozarkhillbilly

    ozarkhillbilly Member

    Jul 18, 2005
    No, the store in under no obligation to take the gun back and No you are under no obligation to help them with their paper work problem.
    If they made it clear to you that the gun was your problem then the paper work problem is their problem.

    I understand to sentiment of some dealers you believe that the problem is between you and the manufacture, but how many of these same people if they bought a TV at Wal-Mart that did not work right out of the box would take it right back to Wal-Mart and expect a refund or exchange. Which Wal-Mart would give. This is a major reason why big box stores do more business.

    If I bought a new gun that did not work I would expect the store to help me out with it, if they take the profit then take some risk. Thankfully the gun shop I do business with would help me out and that is why I do business with them.
  8. smithmax

    smithmax New Member

    Jul 3, 2009
    So, did you take the seller up on his offer to send it for you? It's lame that it doesn't work, but you should at least give the manufacturer a chance to fix it for you.
  9. mustang_steve

    mustang_steve Participating Member

    Jul 14, 2009
    Tampa Bay area, Florida
    This is SOP for about every gun shop I've been to.

    They cannot service the firearm themselves without a few things happening:
    1) potentially voiding your warranty
    2) If something goes wrong, opening them up to lawsuits.
    3) it may not be the "best" repair

    If the firearm goes to the manufacturer:
    1) warranty is preserved
    2) Nobody is opening themselves up to lawsuits.
    3) It's restored to factory mechanical condition.

    That said, send it back to the factory...let them iron it out. I hope I'm not sounding like a prick here, but buyer's remorse is not a valid reason for a dealer to take back your firearm. The shop should help you out with shipping it to them, since after all they did sell it to you. That's fair. What's not fair is dumping a bad firearm on them that they now have to send in, then sell for used. Basically you're taking a manufacturer issue and trying to make the retailer lose money over it.

    Reporting him to the ATF over it will probably come to bite you in the butt...as the report would NOT be in good faith (instead being meant as a retaliatory measure).
  10. Davek1977

    Davek1977 Senior Member

    Jan 2, 2008
    Short answer- A gun is different than a televsion. Ask Walmart to take a weapon you've taken home and fired (or attempted to fire, even) and see what their response is. Even walmart, who will refund you ther price of a turkey if you return the bones and tell them it sucked, WILL NOT take a gun back. A store "taking back" a gun is something I've yet to witness in 32 years of life. I've seen them send guns in for repeair, I've seen shops do their own repairs, but I've yet to see a shop say "Ok, heres your money back". Its just not SOP in the world of guns, and frankly, if you thought it was, might I suggest coming out from under the rock you must live under once in awhile? Most shops I do business with would bend over backwards to help you return it to the manufacturer, but not a single one will refund your money on a gun you've decided doesn't work or you don't like. "100% satisfaction guranteed or your money back" simply doesn't apply to guns under normal circumstances.
  11. natman

    natman Senior Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    Let's get this straight. You bought a new gun and you don't like it for legitimate reasons. The store has offered to send it back and get it fixed under warranty but you have refused.

    Now you want to try and turn some innocent clerical error like using an outdated 4473 into a stink in retaliation.

    Upon reflection I hope that this sounds as childish and petulant to you as it does to me.
  12. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

    Dec 14, 2005
    Stanwood, WA
    Did the OP fill out the form that the store told him he had to fill out? YES.
    Did the OP fill out the provided form in the way that he was instructed to? YES.
    Did the OP lie on the form? We hope.... NO.

    Is the bad form the fault of the OP? NO.
    Does the OP have any responsibility to correct the mistake made by the gun store? NO

    Is it the fault of the gun store that the gun the OP bought is a POS? NO (assuming that the gun store did not tamper with the gun, which I doubt they did)
    Is it the responsibility of the gun store to fix or replace the gun? NO
    Is it reasonable for the gun store to offer to provide the service of shipping the gun to the manufacturer? YES
  13. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Senior Elder

    Jan 21, 2004
    Norra Texas
    Pretty much so.

    Even debating about screwing with an FFL because you want an (unreasonable) refund rather than getting the (industry standard) warranty repair is frankly extortion, and IMO you should be ashamed of yourself for actually contemplating such a thing.

    Were I that FFL, I would never again allow you through my doorway if I ever caught wind of this.
  14. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Feb 16, 2003
    Ft. Worth
    Legally no, you have no reason to go re-do the paperwork.

    Legally, they have no reason to help you with the gun.

    Personally I couldn't sleep at night if I thought I could help keep the ATF out of a gun store's business and I didn't, no matter how mad I might be at the store.
  15. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Senior Member

    Nov 4, 2006
    I would never expect a FFL give a refund if a new gun didn't work any more than expect a car dealer to take a new car back because it broke down. He did offer to send it back for repairs at no cost to you which seems reasonable. The dealer doesn't seem to be doing anything other than normal business.

    may be able to get a refund from my credit card company. So I will be made whole again.

    My question is What kind to trouble can this company get into for using the wrong form. I would think they would be on the hook for not have a firearm on their records and not having it on hand.

    This sounds vindictive to me.
  16. archigos

    archigos Active Member

    Feb 25, 2008
    The Free State
    Refunds are a favor that some stores will do for you. Treat it as such.
    FFLs have enough to worry about with the BATFE, help them out because a) it is the right thing to do and b) I'm assuming if you're on these forums that you are pro-gun. If you're going to use the BATFE for wrongful vengeance and thus help supplement their unconstitutional power, you are aiding the anti-rights movement and probably shouldn't even waste your time pretending to be a 2nd Amendment supporter.
  17. peyton

    peyton Active Member

    Apr 20, 2006
    Man up, go by and do the paperwork. That local gun store could be closed up and then you will have no where to spend your money or handle the new guns.
    Send your Colt back, they will fix it, even better call colt and they will send shipping instructions FOR FREE!!! Colt is not the only manufacturer that has quality control problems.

    The LGS sold you rifle NIB, now if had been used I could see arguing. I bought a well used Winchester model 94 from my LGS. Went to the range, no bang. They called the gunsmith and paid for the firing pin to be replaced and gave me a box of shells for the inconvience.
  18. BlayGlock

    BlayGlock Active Member

    Jan 18, 2009
    I think your best course of actoin is to have the store send it in for you like they said they would. It will be fixed under the warranty, and I understand your frustration with a bad product. When you get it back, sell it or keep it if you like the way it works.

    No reason to be get these guys in trouble with the BATFE.
  19. Grey_Mana

    Grey_Mana Active Member

    Jun 25, 2008
    Consult a lawyer before deciding to sign anything. Do not sign paperwork you don't have to. Would you sign any other type of form, say - regarding a credit card you closed last year, or for medical bills that were fully paid by insurance but the hospital may have made a mistake and would like you to promise to pay an additional $10,000 if your insurance refuses?

    At a minimum, they need to pay for you to hire a lawyer to review the documents. Otherwise, they don't need the document signed that badly.

    When you sign a document to buy a firearm, BATF has jurisdiction over that sale and therefore over that document. Chance of being mislead or tricked is essentially zero. When you sign documents separate from a gun sale, you don't have that same umbrella protection. If they made a mistake on the paperwork, you have to figure out whether BATF is more likely to protect your rights, or screw with you.

    As a worst-case scenario, they might have been notified about a manufacturer's defect, and been told to return that gun. If they sold it to you by mistake, maybe they want you to sign off that you were informed about the defect and bought it anyway. Is it worth your time to read the documents that carefully, to look for any pitfalls and tricks?
  20. WoofersInc

    WoofersInc Participating Member

    Mar 30, 2007
    Las Vegas
    For the OP. What exactly are the problems you are having with the gun? It might be something that is simple to fix. Please give some more information on it.

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