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Time for a new type of FFL - The Hobbyist

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by CmdrSlander, Jan 27, 2013.

  1. CmdrSlander

    CmdrSlander Well-Known Member

    Since the end of "Kitchen Table FFLs" at the hands of the National Association of Stocking Gun Dealers and the Violence Policy Center (an unholy alliance if ever there was one) the American gun owner has been at the mercy of brick and mortar FFLs.

    No longer.

    I call for a push for the creation of a "Hobbyist" FFL similar to the current FFL/3 (Curio & Relic). The hobbyist FFL would require the payment of substantial SOT, around $5000, which would fund an extensive background check. After the completion of the check the Hobbyist FFL holder (FFL type 12) would be free to:

    -Purchase firearms directly from out of state dealers, all manufacturers, and out of state individuals for personal use.
    -Obtain and manufacture suppressors, short barreled rifles and shotguns without additional interaction with the BATFE (cash and carry for all NFA save machine guns and DDs) for personal use.

    The Hobbyist FFL would be quite popular and provide large amounts of money for the indebted Federal Government.

    I think we need to push back with something like this that reduces gun restrictions to an extent instead of just trying to lessen the impact of proposed gun control legislation.
  2. skeeziks

    skeeziks Well-Known Member

    I like the way you think!
  3. Birch Knoll

    Birch Knoll Well-Known Member

    Ridiculous. Get an 01 FFL and be done with it.
  4. lobo9er

    lobo9er Well-Known Member

    So those who are wealthy or better off can live more free than those who aren't? Besides how much more of an extensive background check are they going to make? Arrest record and credit history tell a pretty clear story of person.
  5. jamesbeat

    jamesbeat Well-Known Member

    It's a good idea, but $5000 is an awful high price for a background check!

    I had to have an FBI background check for immigration purposes (I'm from the UK) and the background check is very thorough, indeed I believe it covers the immigrant's home country as well as the States.
    The fee for the entire application process is about $1500 or so, which includes payment for the background check, fingerprinting etc.

    So I'd say that even a thorough shakedown by the FBI, fingerprinting, admin fees, production of license document etc should cost nowhere near $5000.
  6. RCArms.com

    RCArms.com Well-Known Member

    This about sums it up.
  7. happygeek

    happygeek Well-Known Member

    Not really, not if you don't intend to engage in the business of selling firearms.

    The simple fix is for the ATF to decide that all Title I firearms are 'curios'. A truly pro-gun President could simply make that an executive order. For that matter the ATF could simply decide that all Title I firearms are "sporting" for import purposes.

    Considering that the ATF currently charges $30 for the privilege of sending them your name, social, and home address I'd assume it costs them $30 or less to run a background check and process a license. Why should it cost $5,000? :confused: Since they've already run a check on you for $30 why should it cost any extra to buy suppressors and SBRs? (Rhetorical question; $200 is a completely arbitrary amount they wrote into the law in 1934 when $200 was a LOT of money.)

    Or just bring back the "kitchen table dealers" by removing the requirement to 'intend to engage in the business of selling firearms' to get a 01 FFL. The anti-gunners have long claimed [incorrectly I might add] that "you need a license to buy a car, you should need a license to buy a gun!" ... then they argue we shouldn't be allowed to get Federal licenses (http://www.vpc.org/studies/dealgas.htm). :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  8. TennJed

    TennJed Well-Known Member

    $5,000 ?????? have you crunched the numbers? I buy about half my guns online where I would need a FFL transfer. He charges $25. That is 200 guns. So after my 400th gun purchase I would be out of the red?

    Sorry I will pass
  9. This seems like a pretty good deal. It would pay for itself after 334 transfers.
  10. smalls

    smalls Well-Known Member

    $5000? I'm out, unless they make payment plans available.
  11. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Well-Known Member

    I'm in favor of an "expanded" hobbyist FFL (like an 03 C&R license, but applicable to all vintages of guns), but a $5,000 fee is a non-starter. Also be aware of the unintended consequences, which could include the death of the local gunshop. To preserve a meaningful distinction between a "regular" FFL and a "hobbyist" FFL, there would have to be an annual limit to the number of transactions covered by the hobbyist FFL. For example, if you acquire 400 or 500 guns a year, there's a very good chance that most of these are intended for resale -- meaning that the "hobby" is really a business, but one that doesn't have to have a storefront, pay business taxes, etc.
  12. Isaac-1

    Isaac-1 Well-Known Member

    I also think $5000 is way too high, I can possibly see a transactions per year limit, but think it should not be based on the total, but upon the difference between number bought and number sold being less than some number say 100 (in other words you could sell 400 guns and buy 300 in any given year, or vice versa)
  13. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Well-Known Member

    Absolute, complete and utter horsehockey....to say the least.

    1. There are currently more "kitchen table" dealers than "storefront" dealers.
    2. ATF has never prohibited "kitchen table" dealers.
    3. The "National Associtation of Stocking Gun Dealers" died quicker than a cute blonde in Friday The 13th part12.

    Nice try, but "personal use" will quickly turn to "engaging in the business of dealing in firearms" which requires an 01FFL. And where on earth do you get the $5000 price tag? Seems you could engage in the hobby without needing to pay any fee to the Feds.


    Ummmm........what part of 01FFL "Dealer in Firearms" do you not get?:rolleyes:
    It has been a requirement since 1968 that a licensee actually be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. Those that lied on their application did so knowing that they were getting it for personal use....and when caught by ATF had them revoked or nonrenewed. The vast majority voluntarily chose to not renew when told they must comply with local and state laws and requirements.

    For anyone who still believes there are no more "kitchen table" dealers...try doing a search on this very forum and you'll discover that there are dozens of kitchen table dealers (who are actual engaged in the business).

  14. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Well-Known Member

    Why do we try to work within the system that created/requires FFL anyway?

    Whatever the system was intended to do, it isn't doing. Lose the entire FFL system, it stems from the (foolish and incorrect) assumption that guns are unlike other durable goods.
  15. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Well-Known Member

    That "system" is OUR government. Like it or not, its the law. Don't like the law.....then work to change it.

    "Assumption" has nothing to do with it.

    Drugs/medicines/pharmaceuticals, childrens toys, alcoholic beverages, tobacco, automobiles, hot dogs, airplanes, railroads, industrial chemicals, gasoline.....................and thousands of other products are regulated by OUR government. I've never read that firearms are unlike other durable goods....where did you hear that?:scrutiny:
  16. Bubbles

    Bubbles Well-Known Member

    I have to remember that last line.

    <-- "Kitchen Table" MANUFACTURER FFL.
  17. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Well-Known Member

    What about expanding 03 C&R licenses to include modern firearms? It would take a few small tweaks. So long as you weren't operating a business and poaching on the turf of the 01's I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.

    That's the kind of compromise I can get behind. The feds have their bound books to look at and those of us who are constantly swapping and buying won't have the costs and hassle of routing through NICS for modern arms.
  18. gym

    gym member

    I just came from a meeting wher we are looking into getting an FFL here in FL. One of the guys already had one for twenty - thirty years, but gave it up when diagnosed with a terminal disease which he beat. They told him he had 6 months to a year to live and he sold all his guns and gave up his FFL so not to burden his wife when he passed.
    Any how we decided to open a small shop, with a gunsmith, "one fellow just got done with school and is talented with his hands", mostlly internet and word of mouth, and take it from there.It will take some time to find the right spot, "we may use one partners garage", as it will only be for delivery and pick up, and is zoned right.I plan on offering the lowest prices possible with the hope of just breaking even the first year or two.
    At that point we will move to a larger location.There is a guy who did a very similar business model a few towns away, and now after about 4 years is doing very well.I am not fooling myself with this, if it doesn't fly we will shut it down after a year. Everone still has their day job and it will be open to the public for whatever the required amount of hours are, but most sales will be by appt. I have seen it work before, now I want to see for myself how well I can market it.
    I will stock a limited amount of pistols and rifles that I know will sell, and do orders with a turnaround as fast as possible. If we can sell popular guns at low prices and are local to "Vero Beach", which has some pretty high prices for guns, we should pull in some people.
    I'll let you guys know what happens, as it was only the first meeting today.It's just information gathering at this point. I need to see if we get the go ahead from the county town and everyon else necessary.
  19. Bubbles

    Bubbles Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately you're jumping into the retailer market at exactly the wrong time. Distributors are culling their smaller accounts and keeping the top buyers. You will soon learn to hate the word "allocated".

    OTOH there is a shortage of good gunsmiths in the country, which is why most can get away with being cantankerous old coots whose KSA's lack "time management", and they still make a living.
  20. gym

    gym member

    Appreciate the feedback, but time will tell. I will se what my one friend can do as he knows many people in "the business" , we are both in our 60's, and still maintains personall friendships with 2 distributers, and we are not looking to set the world on fire in the beginning.
    just foot in the door would work. And the gunsmithing and later the instruction, "we have a fellow who is a friend that will teach and do various approved courses, "down the road". I will be happy to just get the licenses and set up a very small opeation in the beginning.
    I have had 7 business with huge overheads and know what happens if you attempt to go that route, in this economy. It's a realistic approach, and there is a market for a reasonablly priced local gun shop in town.

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