U.K.: "The British Gun Closet"

Status
Not open for further replies.

cuchulainn

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
3,297
Location
Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
from the National Review

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel051403.asp
Dave Kopel

The British Gun Closet

May 14, 2003, 10:20 a.m.
The British Gun Closet
Slowly, the country is learning the hard way.

LONDON — When I arrived in London, I expected to find a very depressing situation for gun rights, as the formerly robust British right-to-arms is nearing extinction. Yet there are signs that the public is waking up to the failure of gun prohibition.

To be sure, the present circumstances in Britain are awful. A world-class British rifle shooter explained to me that he never tells ordinary people that he is a marksman, for fear of their reaction. British shooters today, like homosexuals in Oklahoma in 1950, feel so intimidated by the hostility of the surrounding culture that they must be careful not to expose themselves, except to known members of their minority group.

The British government is more abusive than ever to people who use force for lawful protection, and as accommodating as ever to violent criminals. The news that two Britons carried out a terror bombing in Israel has not resulted in calls from the government or from the "posh," non-tabloid press for cracking down on the clerics who incite terrorism. The tabloid Express takes a harder line. The bombers grew up in England in a secular, English-speaking, integrated environment, but then fell under the influence of hateful clerics in England, so the connection between terrorist incitement and terrorist action is clear enough. The civil-liberties merits of tolerating terrorist clerics is far outweighed by the massive loss of liberty for non-terrorist citizens that would follow the nearly inevitable advent of jihad bombings in Great Britain.

Non-terrorist criminals also continue to get an easy ride from the government. Some teenagers who perpetrated an unarmed gang homicide on a random stranger were last week sentenced to terms of 2-4 years. The same week, reports the Evening Standard (4/29), "An evil young killer who stabbed a complete stranger through the ear with a hunting knife" was sentenced to seven years in prison. Meanwhile, the government is introducing a five-year mandatory minimum for carrying a gun illegally. So, merely carrying a gun merits a sentence in the same range as murdering someone.

Using force to resist a crime seems to trouble the government a great deal. A businessman who hit a pair of burglars with a brick was prosecuted and called "an unmitigated thug" by the government (Daily Mail, 5/1). Yet the jury acquitted the victim, since British jurors do retain the right to acquit a morally innocent defendant who has technically violated the law.

A masked man with a cape and a mask who was on his way to a costume party intervened to save someone who was being beaten by a gang of thugs. The local police spokesman was very unhappy with the man's altruism, since only the police are supposed to resist criminals (Daily Mail, 5/3).

A gun "amnesty" has resulted in the surrender of about 25,000 arms, and was proclaimed a great triumph by the government. Civil-libertarian Stephen Robinson noted in the Telegraph: "The police were strangely reluctant to specify how many of the guns were handed over in inner city areas, fueling the suspicion that many of the weapons were family heirlooms. . . . Many appear to have been handed in by the elderly and law-abiding who fear becoming criminalized in a society in which private gun ownership is slowly being outlawed."

The gun-prohibition lobbies and their many government and media allies, not sated by the near-destruction of mainstream firearms sports, are now setting their sights on air guns and replica firearms. Home Minister David Blunkett wants to ban public possession, whereas London mayor Ken Livingston is pushing total prohibition of replica guns. A teacher was fired for allowing a student to bring a replica gun to school as part of a science exhibit.

Overall, Britain now suffers from a higher violent crime rate than the U.S., and has reverted to its medieval status of being substantially more dangerous than most of the European continent. (Continental gun laws are generally more repressive than in the U.S., but more liberal than in England.) The lesson: More gun bans, more violent crime.

The 1997 extermination of Britain's pitiful minority of handgun target shooters did not directly increase crime, since existing laws made it impossible for a lawful handgun owner (or any other lawful gun owner) to use a firearm for self-defense. Rather, the handgun confiscation of 1997 was the continuation of a trend that began in the 1950s that has resulted in the destruction of the law-abiding gun culture, and the suppression of every form of non-government use of force against criminals. As a result, criminal violence and a criminal gun culture are 50 times more prevalent than they were in the early 20th century, when there were no antigun laws, and no laws against the use of reasonable force against violent criminals.

And yet there are signs that the public is finally awakening to the fact that the gun-prohibition movement can deliver hatred and repression, but comes up very short on public safety. The 1997 handgun ban is perceived by many as a failure, as gun crime has risen substantially since then.

An April 29 poll in the Birmingham Post reported that 68 percent of Britons believe it should be legal for householders to shoot a burglar or other criminal invader. Twenty-two percent of Britons said that they would carry a handgun for protection, if they legally could. Only 7 percent of Londoners would exercise that choice compared with 55 percent in Yorkshire.

Although many recognize the failure of gun control, this does not mean that they are against licensing, registration, and background checks. But it does mean that Britons are beginning to understand that a nation without legal guns is a nation at the mercy of gangs and criminals.

Peter Hitchens has just come out with a major new book, A Brief History of Crime: The Decline of Order, Justice, and Liberty in England. Hitchens, a columnist for the Sunday Mail, argues that British governments have helped cause the tremendous increase in crime over past decades by refusing to punish criminals strictly, and by making excuses for criminals. As crime has soared, the government has responded by cracking down on the law-abiding population and on civil liberties. The right to silence has been abolished, the right to jury trial has been restricted, surveillance cameras are pervasive, and wiretaps and e-mail intercepts are skyrocketing. Hitchens devotes a chapter to the failed campaign against guns, explaining how the deprivation of the means of self-defense causes more crime.

Of course, there's a long way to go between the beginning of popular recognition of a problem and the repeal of the government policies that caused the problem. But the British do appear to be making the tentative first steps in the right direction, and that's a notable change from last decade.
 
Yes indeed very laughable... your country and its policies are indeed very laughable.
 
why is it that some of you spend hours deconstructing the inaccuracies in the likes of Bowling for Columbine, and yet ignore these:

i) Some teenagers who perpetrated an unarmed gang homicide on a random stranger were last week sentenced to terms of 2-4 years.

these kids were not found guilty of the murder - the actual killers got life.

ii) The same week, reports the Evening Standard (4/29), "An evil young killer who stabbed a complete stranger through the ear with a hunting knife" was sentenced to seven years in prison.

this is either a typo or is made up - the actual story is: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/4584417?source=Evening Standard and the 16 year old youth was sentenced to be detained at Her Majesty's Pleasure (ie life) on the understanding that he serves at least 7 years 10 months. That is not "sentenced to seven years".

iii) The bombers grew up in England in a secular, English-speaking, integrated environment, but then fell under the influence of hateful clerics in England, so the connection between terrorist incitement and terrorist action is clear enough. The civil-liberties merits of tolerating terrorist clerics is far outweighed by the massive loss of liberty for non-terrorist citizens that would follow the nearly inevitable advent of jihad bombings in Great Britain.

This is verbatim from the likes of the Sun, Mail and Express. It ignores all the arrests and convictions of Islamist clerics who preach race hate and wishes to paint the picture of a rampaging Muslim youth out of control in the UK. On one hand Kopel states that HMG denies civil rights by firearms controls; on the other he criticises HMG for not cracking down on free speech.

iv) Using force to resist a crime seems to trouble the government a great deal. A businessman who hit a pair of burglars with a brick was prosecuted and called "an unmitigated thug" by the government (Daily Mail, 5/1). Yet the jury acquitted the victim, since British jurors do retain the right to acquit a morally innocent defendant who has technically violated the law.

he would have been called "an unmitigated thug" by the prosecution, not the Government. The man was found not guilty, presumably on grounds of self-defence - which at a stroke disproves all of Kopels statements about self-defence being illegal.

v) and the suppression of every form of non-government use of force against criminals.

see above. The oft-cited cases, those of Martin and the bloke from Tottenham, were found guilty because a jury of their peers thought them guilty. For each of these, there are far more cases where the right of self defence has been upheld. Do a google search for "Duncan Ferguson" and burglar for the truth of this.

vi)The right to silence has been abolished, the right to jury trial has been restricted, surveillance cameras are pervasive, and wiretaps and e-mail intercepts are skyrocketing

The right to silence has not been abolished. if you choose to excercise that right then the Court may draw conclusions from that, especially if the defendant raises something in his defence that he failed to answer when questioned. The right to jury trial has also not been restricted - one can demand a jury for most criminal matters. CCTV has taken off, precisely because it has proven to be effective at detecting crime; and CCTV evidence has proved vital in so many murder and anti-terrorist investigations - James Bulger, the nail bomber Copeland, the Real IRA cell and so on. Wiretaps and e-mail intercepts remain very rare; Hitchens (and Kopel) are confused by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act which governs these investigative practices.
 
The right to silence has not been abolished. if you choose to excercise that right then the Court may draw conclusions from that, especially if the defendant raises something in his defence that he failed to answer when questioned.
You're equivocating. The right to silence refers to a ban against the prosecution using your silence against you. As you so clearly describe, that ban has been abolished.

Thus the right to silence has been abolished. Period.

It's as if you are saying people have the right to free speech in Totalitarian-stan, but if they choose to exercise that right, the government might imprison them.
 
cuch,

no, you still have the right to silence.

the prosecution can only use your silence if you state at trial something which you were asked in interview and did not answer. thats the same as stating something different in interview than you do as trial. the court can draw an inference (which is not evidence) if you do that, or fail to take the stand, or remain silent when asked a question.

(edited to add the last part)

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/hamlyn/silence.htm
 
Yeah, and people in China have free speech, but might go to jail for exercising it.

People remain silent -- even when they have valid defenses -- because they are under pressure and they are not trained lawyers. Thus, they may inadvertantly say something that can be twisted against them or be taken out of context.

The right to silence refers to the right to let the trained, professional lawyers speak for you under the controlled and **OPEN** atmosphere of a public trial, and it involves a ban on the prosecuction from using your prior silence against you.

That right has been abolished.

You are equivocating.
 
cuch,

no it doesnt. all of our rights, in both countries, are qualified to some extent, even and especially your BoR rights. because you can be arrested for shouting fire in a cinema doesnt mean you have no free speech, does it? does the AWB mean you have no RKBA? of course not. all the supposedly-inviolable rights have qualifications that society imposes on them.

where a person remains silent because he is denied legal advice (which would render all subsequent evidence invalid btw) then the significance of that silence would be nil. the same applies if the prosecution fishes in its questioning. IME the only time such inferenences are drawn is in "no comment" interviews where subsequently the defence tries to state that there is a legitimate reason for whatever the question is about - eg: burglar breaks into home, leaves fingerprints, gets arrested, makes no comment interview, then at trial claims he is a friend of the family / gas board official / carpet fitter that worked at the house hence the marks - something that is usually false but the defence hopes to ambush the prosecution believing that they dont have time to disprove that.

your silence is not evidence. your silence when asked about things for which you are on trial, after you have recieved legal advice and when its your oppurtunity to have your version of events on record can (as indeed it should) allow people of the jury to ask themselves why you did that.

if further evidence was needed that the right to silence remains, its that defence lawyers still advise their clients to remain silent. the ambush defence is, sadly, alive and kicking.

also, we have never had "RKBA" as a nation. check the history, please.
 
Your silence can be used against you in a court of law.

No amount of equivocation will change that a primary reason for the right of silence -- keeping silent until (and/or during) the trial -- has been effectively abolished by allowing a "penalty" for using it. The "penalty" is allowing your prior silence to be used against you.

Edited to add: The defendant should have the option to remain silent at trial or raise a defense at trial regardless of what transpired during the investigation. This rule penalizes the latter.

And spare me the further equivocation:
your silence is not evidence.
Evidence is made up of facts which a jury/judge can consider when deciding your case, and silence is now a fact which a jury/judge can consider when deciding your case.

the ambush defence
No such thing. The defendant should (and did) have the right to remain silent. Period. Thus, he should have no obligation to provide his defense prior to the trial.

Edited to add: The prosecution has a duty to come to trial able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the defendant is guilty. Not anticipating and accounting for a possible defense is not being "ambushed" but a sign of incompetance on the part of either or both the police or the prosecution.

If the defendant brings a formerly un-uttered defense that is nonetheless true -- nothing whatsoever should apply negatively to the prior silence (i.e. no inference allowed). If the defendant brings a false defense, his silence is irrellevant -- the prosecution has a duty to show why it is wrong. If there are fingerprints, for example, then it is the prosecution's duty to rule out -- prior to trial -- his being a family friend or gas meter reader. This duty exists regardless of whether the defendant actually makes such defense prior or during the trial.

Indeed failure to fully investigate such possibilites are in themselves proof of the prosecution's failure to establish guilt beyond the shadow of a doubt and should be used against the prosecution's case regardless of what the defendant claims.

does the AWB mean you have no RKBA?
Apples vs. oranges. Infringe (apple) vs. abolish (orange). The AWB infringes the RKBA. Your silence rules effectively abolish the right to silence by putting up penalties (allowing negative inferences) for exercising it in the primary way it was intended -- keeping silent until and if you decide to break silence.

we have never had "RKBA" as a nation. check the history, please.
You did have it, though it certainly was not codified like ours.
 
Last edited:
There, but for the Grace of God, Go We.

Uh, god? We can use a little more Grace here, on our side of the pond with respect to RKBA and self defense....


-------------------------------------
At least the british subjects remember jury nullification.
------------------------------------
 
CCTV has taken off, precisely because it has proven to be effective at detecting crime; and CCTV evidence has proved vital in so many murder and anti-terrorist investigations
If I could choose between means that will help the court to prosecute my murderers or means that will help me to prevent that murder...

Sorry, as much as I'd like to visit the Brecon Beacons, the Highlands and your military museums again, travelling to a country where I'll be fined for carrying even a pocket knife is not an option.
 
Of course, there's a long way to go between the beginning of popular recognition of a problem and the repeal of the government policies that caused the problem.

It's all over for England. Only a revolution could restore any semblance of civil rights, and frankly, I can't imagine those sheep ever mustering the courage even to contemplate the idea of a revolution.
 
you can remain silent until the trial and then produce your explanation - but you'll almost certainly get an order for prosecution costs made against you, as by your silence you "misled the prosecution into believing it's case was stronger than it was" - so here's a de facto fine for wasting everybody's time. Actually, it's difficult to see why you would want to stay schtum in those circumstances. Doing a Perry Mason number to escape with one bound might be dramatic but in the real world no defendant wants to spend time and money going to the courthouse when they can stop the whole process before it gets that
 
I am finally beginning to understand how they lost the Empire. Brutal stupidity.
Well, that and an obsessive compulsive desire to control everything and log all the details. I think it is their compulsiveness which actually sealed the casket. It comes across as stupidity but it is really more misdirection than anything else. Kipling once wrote an entire book of poetry dedicated to the bean counters of the British Empire. :rolleyes:
 
agricola wrote:
...he would have been called "an unmitigated thug" by the prosecution, not the Government.
Help me out here. In the US, prosecutors work for the government and speak for the government in prosecuting a case, so when they say something, it is resonable to conclude that they're stating the government's position. (Unless a prosecutor says something so off the wall that higher level officials feel compelled to step in and repudiate what was said. ) By your statement above, you appear to be saying prosecutors in the UK don't speak for and represent the Government in criminal cases.

So the clear implication is that UK prosecutors don't work for and represent the government.

Please explain why statements by UK prosecutors do not represent the government's position.
 
hankb,

Because the prosecutor is presenting the case of the Crown in that matter, he isnt speaking for the government in terms of policy (or imagined policy in this case). He or she is simply trying to paint the defendant in a bad a light as possible so as to increase the chances of securing a conviction, in the same way that the defence uses similar language to try and secure acquittals and to discredit prosecution witnesses.

Given all that, it still doesnt excuse that basic error in that statement.
 
I am glad Agricola is here to defend the other side, but after reading this thread I lost a bit more respect for UK's justice system.

Its a crime to not let the prosecution know your defence. You can be tried multiple time if there is "compelling new evidence."

CCTV is not worth the loss of freedom and privacy. It is somewhat useful for petty crimes, but not worth it in the long run, imho. The aclu has a nice report on it. The question to ask yourself is, "do you want cameras watching what you do in public?"
 
CCTV is not worth the loss of freedom and privacy. It is somewhat useful for petty crimes, but not worth it in the long run, imho.

CCTV does not reduce crime, it merely shifts it. Besides, as T.Stahl already stated, CCTV cannot prevent my murder or mugging, merely aid in the prosecution of my murderers or muggers. I'd much rather have an effective tool to prevent my murder or mugging: a personal weapon.
 
The right to silence, in an American criminal trial, has no limits of which I am aware. That's one reason the Bush administration wanted to use military tribunals to try foreign terrorists (and, depending on who you believe, everyone else.)
If you choose to be silent, then you are silent. That's all there is to it.

But that wasn't the part I found funny. This is the part I found really good:
The right to jury trial has also not been restricted - one can demand a jury for most criminal matters.

Emphasis mine, of course.

I'm glad to hear that murderers can still get life in the U.K., though.
 
dustin,

thats more evidence of lack of knowledge. the ditching of the "double jeopardy" rule was mooted by the Home Secretary but has not been enacted, and as for not disclosing the defence case, that too is not on the books yet - at the moment an inference can be drawn from that silence, it is not a crime:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/11/22/njeop22.xml

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200203/cmbills/008/en/03008x--.htm

CCTV has proven time and time again its usefulness in the detection of crime, including very serious crimes. the argument that it moves crime away from an area to another one is specious: if someone wanted to burgle your home, found you were armed and went down the street to an unarmed house would it be the guns fault for that? of course not.

the same goes for the civil liberties argument, unless you think people dont have the right to look at you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top