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UK Ministers 'covered up' gun crime

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by xds&gsps, Mar 11, 2008.

  1. xds&gsps

    xds&gsps New Member

    Dec 15, 2005
    somewhere along I-15 in traffic, UT
    Interesting article on the gun battle in the UK

    Found the link to it in this article on Fox News about the Heller v DC case coming up.

    I tried searching for a related thread but found none.

    August 26, 2007
    Ministers 'covered up' gun crime
    David Leppard

    THE government was accused yesterday of covering up the full extent of the gun crime epidemic sweeping Britain, after official figures showed that gun-related killings and injuries had risen more than fourfold since 1998.

    The Home Office figures - which exclude crimes involving air weapons - show the number of deaths and injuries caused by gun attacks in England and Wales soared from 864 in 1998-99 to 3,821 in 2005-06. That means that more than 10 people are injured or killed in a gun attack every day.

    This weekend the Tories said the figures challenged claims by Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, that gun crime was falling. David Davis, the shadow home secretary, tells her in a letter today that the “staggering findings” show her claims that gun crime has fallen are “inaccurate and misleading”.

    The political row erupted as Merseyside police continued to question a 15-year-old boy about the murder last week of Rhys Jones in Croxteth, Liver-pool. The 11-year-old was returning from football training when he was shot by a hooded teenager on a bicycle.
    How worried should we be about gun crime?

    Serious gun crime is concentrated in particular parts of England; internationally, the country has a low death rate from guns

    * Factfile: teenagers gunned down across UK

    * Three murders in four days in South London

    * We Shall Overcome, protesters sing at peace vigil

    Related Links

    * Applause, not silence, is tribute to Rhys

    * Gang murder ‘anniversary’ that may have killed Rhys

    * Police fiddle while children are killed


    * Rhys Jones shooting

    Experts are examining a BMX bike abandoned in another area of the city. Six other teenagers, including two girls, from the Croxteth and Norris Green areas were in custody last night. Two others have been released on bail.

    Senior officers believe Rhys died because he walked into the line of fire between the gunman and his intended target, who is thought to have been one of three teenagers 30-70 yards away.

    Bernard Hogan-Howe, the chief constable of Merseyside, said yesterday: “We still need help in solving this crime. We need witnesses who are prepared to stand up in court.”

    Hogan-Howe said he had invested “a huge amount of policing” into the gang-related problems in the Croxteth area and had had a great deal of success.

    A minute’s applause was held yesterday at Goodison Park stadium where Everton, the team Rhys loved, were playing Black-burn Rovers. The 11-year-old’s murder has led to a public outcry against Britain’s gang and gun culture and a furious political debate about the government’s efforts to tackle the problem.

    Smith last night proposed the setting up of neutral “drop-off zones” where illegal weapons could be handed in. “This means we can actually take that gun out of circulation and stop it from doing harm,” she said.

    The Home Office has repeatedly denied gun crime is rising. Last week it pointed to the latest annual crime statistics, which appeared to show that overall gun crime was 13% down on the previous year.

    But in his letter to Smith, released today, Davis said these claims were contradicted by figures “buried” in a Home Office statistical bulletin, published ear-lier this year. “[Here] we find the most revealing indication of the true gun-re-lated violence sweeping Britain. Gun-related killings and injuries (excluding air weapons) have increased over fourfold since 1998,” he wrote.

    The Home Office said: "We remain fully committed to tackling gang culture and gun and knife crime through responsive policing, tough powers and funding prevention projects."

    Rhys’s killing fell on the anniversary of the fatal shooting of Liam Smith, a senior figure in a local gang known as the Strand Gang. Several members of the rival Croxteth Crew were found guilty of his murder.

    Locals had said they believed members of the Strand Gang were planning a reprisal shooting to mark the anniversary.

    “We always deploy additional resources around these anniversaries,” said Chief Superintendent Chris Armitt. “But we are over half a mile here from Croxteth, and Norris Green is further away again. The additional resources [were] focused only where gangs predominantly operate.”

    Extract from letter by David Davis, shadow home secretary, to Jacqui Smith, home secretary, August 24, 2007

    Dear Jacqui, We are all concerned at the rising tide of violent crime that has manifested itself this week in a spate of shocking killings, including the tragic death of young Rhys Jones. You told GMTV this morning that “statistics aren’t a help but gun crime is down”. That is an extraordinary claim.

    According to Home Office figures, gun crime (excluding air weapons) has almost doubled since Labour took office. The annual crime figures, released by the Home Office in July, suggest a 13% decrease on the previous year, which neglects the 18% increase in firearm homicides.

    However, perhaps most telling is the massive increase in gun violence, disclosed on 25 January of this year (Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2005-06, Home Office). Buried at page 36 . . . we find [that] . . . gun-related killings and injuries (excluding airguns) have increased by over fourfold since 1998.

    In light of this information, your claim that gun crime is down is both inaccurate and misleading. One clear fact on gun-related violence is that if you don’t count it, you won’t be able to tackle it. Your predecessors opted for spin over substance. I hope that is a path you will avoid and would be grateful for an explanation of what action you plan.

    Yours sincerely, David Davis
  2. Ash

    Ash Mentor

    May 10, 2004
    Anywhere but here
    "Smith last night proposed the setting up of neutral “drop-off zones” where illegal weapons could be handed in. “This means we can actually take that gun out of circulation and stop it from doing harm,” she said."

    What is the definition of insanity???

  3. Rokyudai

    Rokyudai Active Member

    Jul 25, 2007
    So covering up faulty crime statistics DOESN'T make the problem go away? Hmm...go figure.

    Newsflash: The cat is out of the bag. The cat is out of the bag....of course since August I think we haven't heard much different from them.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2008
  4. Beagle-zebub

    Beagle-zebub Participating Member

    Dec 18, 2006
    Moscow, Russia
    Politically speaking, it does. :D
  5. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Dec 24, 2002
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    Some mean virus, I guess. So sad.
  6. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Senior Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    Ahhhh, Perfidious Albion. While the figures look bad, the Brits still can't hold a candle to good old American crime statistics.

    Out of a population of 50,000,000 (+/-) there were only 3400 injury/deaths due to illegal gun use? A walk in the park I tell ya.

    Heck, just taking California alone, out of an estimated pop. of 36,000,000 I can easily find 2400 homicides along with a factor ranging from 7 - 10X that for GSW (non-death) which would mean a total ranging from 19,000 up to 26,000 (statistics, while not a strong suit of mine are fun to play around with and these numbers vary from report to report, year to year with 2003 being the last year I quickly found online). IIRC approx only 26% of the CA numbers were gang related and I'd bet that the UK shows a higher propensity of gang related shootings than the US, as most of the British Empire are law-abiding (as is most of the US population).

    You guys just aren't trying very hard over there. Granted we have more firearms and probably more dis-satisfied 'yutes' wit guns over here, but, if you're going to run with the big dogs ya gotta get up off the porch every now and then. Personally, I like the idea of letting the sleeping dog lie there on his porch, not to mention allowing the law-abiding populace the RKBA's. (Like THAT's gonna ever happen!)

    I personally am shocked that a government agency would obfuscate and incorrectly present statistical data that might make them look, you know, not so rosy. Hey, sometimes you gotta say something to get the necessary funding you need to deal with the issue doncha? Or is that just a US of A thing?
  7. RedLion

    RedLion Member

    Dec 8, 2007
    Land of 10,000 lakes
    Once again, I don't think the guns are invading Britain, but at least they added the crime part after it. It's a start.
  8. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Senior Member

    Apr 17, 2005
    Baba Louie, what is the overall violent crime rate there involving all attacks no matter the weapon?

    For a country that supposedly bans/controls all handguns, I find it interesting that you have that high of a rate and it is increasing.
  9. TEDDY

    TEDDY Active Member

    Jan 2, 2007
    british gun crime

    one of the big problems in britain is the ethnic population that has emigrated to the british Islands.also the way the statistics are presented.a multipul killing is presented as one killing.:rolleyes::confused::uhoh:
  10. Fish828

    Fish828 New Member

    Dec 18, 2007
    i don't know if ethnicity has to do with the crimes...i would say it's more like economic class/financial situation or opportunity or location/population density...
  11. Titan6

    Titan6 member

    Feb 7, 2007
    Gillikin Country
    Britian is pretty much done as a sovereign nation. The parliment voted against the referendum to allow the people to decide if they want to give up portions of their consitutional law in favor of the EU.

    At this point the people are just bystanders as their government runs along without them.
  12. romma

    romma Senior Member

    Jun 28, 2005
    Says it all... It's the guns fault, just like I thought to begin with.
  13. Ash

    Ash Mentor

    May 10, 2004
    Anywhere but here
    And like the UK, our worst gun crime occurs in those places with the most restrictive laws.

  14. Starship1st

    Starship1st Active Member

    Feb 4, 2008
    Tucson, AZ
    Yes they cover up the gun crimes to keep up tourism. Reality is that gun-free zones don't work.:cool:
  15. Broadhead

    Broadhead New Member

    Feb 13, 2005
    Arapahoe County, Colorado
    From the story in the first post: "The Home Office figures - which exclude crimes involving air weapons"

    As in Luftwaffe?
  16. eric.cartman

    eric.cartman Active Member

    Apr 11, 2007
    Ash, you so owe me a new keyboard :what:
  17. Cromlech

    Cromlech Active Member

    Feb 20, 2006
    England, U.K.
    Doesn't surprise me in the least. These people will tweak, skew, and distort the figures however they wish.
  18. General Geoff

    General Geoff Mentor

    Nov 28, 2006
    Allentown, Pennsylvania
    Ministry of Truth, anyone?
  19. Eightball

    Eightball Senior Member

    May 31, 2005
    Louisville, KY
    Holy Crap, they would have had to have driven or walked OVER HALF A MILE. :what:

    Truly a sad reflection on their LEOs if they look at a half-mile, or better yet, "twice that"--1 mile--as a "far off distance" and offer that as an excuse.
  20. Crunker1337

    Crunker1337 Participating Member

    Apr 12, 2007
    Please elaborate.

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