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un informed FFL holders make me crazy

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by CDignition, Aug 19, 2005.

  1. CDignition

    CDignition Well-Known Member

    man, I just bought a new handgun fom a dealer in Texas, and called around some local gun shops to have them fax their FFL to the folks I got the gun from...all of them said "you cant fax them, u have to come here and get it and mail it yourself" I know this is dead wrong, BATF has approved faxing FFL's for transfer..they were totally arguing with me, like I was a peon and didnt know anything,lol..dorks

    My normal gun shop finally returned my call, and he is up to speed and got me taken care of..whew, thanks to them.. I wanted the gun tomorrow and wanted to have them ship it overnite....
  2. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Well-Known Member

    All of the dealers I've used have required a signed in ink copy of an FFL before shipping to that business.
  3. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

    It is a brand new ruling. I just barely got the notification from the BATF this week, long after I read about it on THR. I would cut the FFLs some slack because many of them probably haven't even been notifed yet.
  4. CDignition

    CDignition Well-Known Member

    I would, but they were so rude to me, and so sure I was wrong,lol..that irritates me the most...
  5. jefnvk

    jefnvk Well-Known Member

    If they have not yet recieved the notification, it is completely understandable why they were sure you were wrong. That ruling changed years of requiring an inked copy to be sent.
  6. tg_26101

    tg_26101 Well-Known Member

    Just possibly getting irritated and calling them dorks makes them a little less than cooperative? I've had my FFL for over 17 years, and didn't know anything about faxing an FFL until a week ago when I got my latest newsletter - for the past 17 years, that was a definate NO WAY. I'm still a little uneasy about it myself, and in addition, as I understand, it requires looking into the EZ Check to confirm. Maybe when it comes to doing a transfer for minimal gain, the dealers weren't too excited about taking the time. It also makes me just a LITTLE nervous when someone has to have a gun RIGHT NOW!!!
  7. CDignition

    CDignition Well-Known Member

    I assume u never go to gun shows?> lol so if I called you today, you would be up to speed?? looks that way..I guess the hicks I called around here dont know how to read,lol
  8. Tory

    Tory member

    Relative skills

    Personal attacks are not allowed on THR.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2005
  9. tg_26101

    tg_26101 Well-Known Member

    I haven't displayed at a gun show since about 2000. It just got to the point it wasn't any fun, and the aggravation exceeded the compensation.

    I'm aware of the new ability to fax an FFL. I haven't done it, and if I did or didn't would probably depend on circumstances at the time. A one-time customer I hadn't seen before, wanting me to do a transfer because his regular guy wasn't available, pushing to have a gun the next day, wanting me to drop everything to accomodate him, probably not.

    I'm a hick and proud of it, far from sophisticated, but it's MY FFL, and I can do with it as I please. If I'm ever in doubt, I'll err on the side of not taking chances on a possible illegality. Making $20 isn't worth the potential grief that can come with a mistake.

    Just my opinion, don't care if you agree, don't care if you don't.
  10. CDignition

    CDignition Well-Known Member

    uh oh..the Harvard types are out in full force.. :neener:

    just FYI, the gun I bought is a $2K Sporting clays shotgun, and I wanted it sooner than later.. :rolleyes:
  11. GigaBuist

    GigaBuist Well-Known Member

    That's news to me, and while I'm just a consumer I try and keep on top of things myself.

    Seriously, cut them some slack. After years of being beat down told that they could not photocopy a license and mail it (IIRC) being told that they could FAX one would have probably been insane to them. It'll take a while for them to get the new info.

    Be nice to your gun dealers... they're better armed than you. :)

    BOTH sides of the issue live in fear of the BATFE, and they have a lot more at stake that you do. Twice I've had issues with my ID while buying. Once I had just moved, and was new to the game, and when I filled out the 4473 with my current address and it didn't match my address on the driver's license they halted the sale. I appologized, explained that I didn't even think about that, and asked them what I can do to make the sale happen that day. Turns out a sticker on the back from the DMV was good enough. Ran down to the DMV, got my sticker address change, and showed up to their surprise not long after.

    Long lunch, but my manager was the one that told me I needed a 12 gauge shotgun. Not an issue. :)

    More recently my DL expired and I was a bit irked that my new one now had my SSN attached to it in a database. I was doing a quasi-experiment to find out how long I could go without a "valid" ID even though the ID was clearly me, and had my current address. I let the envelope sit on my counter as long as I could -- and the jig was up when I tried to buy a gun. I had honestly forgotten that I was carrying old ID, as it works for everything else. While the clerk appologized for not being allowed to make the sale, I applogized for my mistake, and went home to dig up the new ID. I expressed that I understood their fear of the BATFE (and they cited a recent education session they had with an agent that explicitly mentioned expired ID) and came back pronto after I dug the new one out. That shop had -zero- reason to think I wasn't legit. I had purchased from them before, and they could have dug out my old 4473 that approved me for a handgun there, but I wasn't going to question them -- this is their livelyhoood!

    Gun dealers live in FEAR of the hand of the ATF. I'm forgiving when they get a bit anal. I've had some dealers require that you use no abbreviations on the 4473! I think it's absurd, but somewhere they got this idea in their head that the BATFE will crack down on them if the form is incomplete. You may not appreviate "Drive" as "Dr." on the license. "Southeast" cannot be written "SE" and I cannot use "Grand Rapids, MI" as my birth place -- I have to write "Grand Rapids, Michigan."

    They don't like it, and we don't like it, but they HAVE to be anal about the whole process. It comes with the territory.
  12. TarpleyG

    TarpleyG Well-Known Member

    For those that didn't get the letter...



    Section 27 CFR 478.94 requires the following for sales
    or deliveries of firearms between licensees:
    “A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed
    dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and
    a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of
    curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the
    identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to
    making the transaction. Verification shall be established
    by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified
    copy of the transferee’s license and by such other means
    as the transferor deems necessary:...”

    This section of the regulations requires a licensee to
    verify another licensee’s status prior to making sales or
    deliveries to such licensee. Please be advised that ATF
    will now recognize a faxed copy of a Federal firearms
    license as an acceptable alternative form of verification.
    ATF strongly suggests that FFLs utilize the FFLeZ
    Check system and verify the authenticity of the
    transferee’s license prior to shipping or disposing of a
    firearm(s) to another licensee.

    In addition, verification and certification of a license
    is not considered valid unless a legible copy of
    the transferee’s license clearly identifies the name,
    address, license number and expiration date of the
    license. Acceptance of blurred or illegible copies of a
    transferee’s license may constitute noncompliance with

    Finally, since all fax machines and settings differ, FFLs
    may need to fax with a fax resolution setting of fine,
    super fine, or photo to ensure the fax copy of the
    license is legible.
  13. jefnvk

    jefnvk Well-Known Member

    So, is scanning and emailing it acceptable?
  14. CDignition

    CDignition Well-Known Member

    Good Posts..Thanks for the Info
  15. Sam

    Sam Well-Known Member

    Well Mr. CDIgnition,
    I'll tell you that I go out of my way to take care of my customers, I would not tolerate being insulted by one. In one post you say it was a handgun and the next it was a $2K shotgun.

    Personally I couldn't care less that you want your $2K shotgun right now.
    I have a 9 year old customer that wants a 20ga single shot real bad, Get in line or go elsewhere, I'm going to take care of the gentleman first.

    Fortunatly for me I looked at a copy of the latest BATFE proclamation while some of the other local FFL's were having our weekly price fixing breakfast last Tuesday. Didn't get my own personalized copy, for either of my licenses till yesterday afternoon.

  16. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Well-Known Member

    Interesting...guess I shoulda bought a gun this week, then I'd have known :scrutiny:
  17. CDignition

    CDignition Well-Known Member

    Just to clear the sky, I wasnt mean or nasty, I just felt insulted at being talked down to....im not 10,lol.

    The reason the first post sez handgun is I posted this in a Handgun forum elsewhere, and wanted to keep it slightly on topic...
  18. Tejas Gunwerks

    Tejas Gunwerks Well-Known Member

    Scanning and emailing a copy of an FFL is not acceptable. The newsletter makes no mention of scanning and emailing only Faxing.
  19. Logan5

    Logan5 Well-Known Member

    'Till it shows up in your mail or fax, addressed to you, which theoretically might not be much of a delay, I wouldn't expect any FFL to go out on a limb because they'd maybe *heard on the internet* that now it's ok. The law moves at something considerably less than lightning speed, and it's fairly rare to get sued for being slow and cautious, although of course that happens too, but much much less. Sometimes, all the "Information age, commerce at the speed of light" hooey breaks down, and it's not like we all didn't see that part coming 20 miles up the pike. People do the best they can; they're just trying to run a business according to some really wierd rules. It's not like they have live news feeds of ATFE rule changes either; If they were paying me I would have told them to stall for an hour 'till I checked it out. Possibly ore. Remember this BS next time you're voting, but don't blame the victim here.
  20. Sam

    Sam Well-Known Member

    What else got changed to "keep it slightly on topic"?
    What was it they call intentionally untrue statements?


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