Unintentional Discharge with 1911 in Public Bathroom

[tipoc]

Where'd the bullet go?

Back to the Pics! I noticed this when I first looked at the pics from the op. Look at the 4th pic down.

This is of the paper cartridge thing that holds the "sanitary rear end gaskets" for the toilet seat. This is the thing that slides into plastic dohicky that the fella stuffed his gun into.

Note that the paper is all torn up. This is the result of a bullet hitting it. That's what it looks like and that's why the fella is showing it to us. Those tears are not the result of the gun slipping through. The paper is shredded.

Note also the direction of the shred.

So one of two things happened. The gun slipped through, hit the floor, discharged and the bullet ricocheted back up into the paper thingamajig. But the direction of the shred bothers me there. Maybe the entire envelope fell? Or...the gun discharged as he was stuffing it into the holder, or as it slipped, blew through the paper and the bullet hit the floor before the gun did.

Either way, make no mistake that the bullet could have hurt someone. In incidents like this one in the past bullets have.

tipoc

 

[mr.trooper]

Yes, the solution is clearly to buy expensive titanium parts for your 1911 ... It certainly cant be to buy a better holster, or to fix your bad gun handling habits.

 

[tipoc]

Yes, the solution is clearly to buy expensive titanium parts for your 1911 ... It certainly cant be to buy a better holster, or to fix your bad gun handling habits.

What would the future of capitalism be if buying a more expensive gun wasn't the solution to my bad gun handling habits? Buying a bigger house makes me more important and a Ferrarri will make me sexy and better looking won't it? So now you say that a $3,000 gun won't make me a gunnaroo? Are you a communist sir or the member of some "consider the lilies of the field" sect?!?

tipoc

 

[HankR]

Hey Sam and Tuner,

It looks as if Walt Kuleck already posted a video (which I found by reading the original thread).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_QkWEiX2eE


There is also supposed to be a report here:

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=88310&highlight=Drop+Test

but I'm not getting that one to load (maybe need to authenticate for the forum first, then search).

Of course, I finally talked the LGS into selling me the Ruger SR1911 (series 70, I believe) for my price about three weeks ago, and was hoping to actually carry the thing this winter. Now you guys are making me nervous.

Hank

 

[Sam1911]

Nervous? Can you manage to poop without playing with your gun? If so, I'm gonna say you'll be just fine.

 

[tipoc]

I saw that earlier and will have to read through it. But I did notice a couple of things in the vid.

Where's the bullet go? They mention that they have done 19 drops but no marks to the garage door? and only the garage door to stop a ricochet?

And wearing shorts and tennis shoes?

The slide does not retract?

I'll have to read further.

tipoc

 

[wally]

Never try to clear an obstacle with a loaded shotgun (climb a fence, etc).

Can't over emphasize this!
Family tragedy, had a cousin killed in a hunting "accident" by violating this rule. He was hunting with a buddy, they did it nearly every day after milking the cows, came to the fence, he holds both guns buddy goes over the fence, he hands the buddy both guns, buddy drops one, it discharges and my cousin is killed.

Have you ever had a car wreck?.... Statistically the majority of us have over our life. How long should we loose our ability to drive?

Forever if cell phones or alcohol are involved!

 

[wally]

I saw that earlier and will have to read through it. But I did notice a couple of things in the vid.

Where's the bullet go? They mention that they have done 19 drops but no marks to the garage door? and only the garage door to stop a ricochet?

And wearing shorts and tennis shoes?

I believe they are use resized, primer only cases. I've done this to verify most of my carry guns, although I've never seen the need to go above shoulder height for my purposes. I don't carry a 1911.

 

[itsa pain]

Can't over emphasize this!
Family tragedy, had a cousin killed in a hunting "accident" by violating this rule. He was hunting with a buddy, they did it nearly every day after milking the cows, came to the fence, he holds both guns buddy goes over the fence, he hands the buddy both guns, buddy drops one, it discharges and my cousin is killed.



Forever if cell phones or alcohol are involved!

that is ridiculous statement you made to lose driving forever because of talking on a phone . what if you are talking to someone in the back seat which to me is the same as cell phone not texting I mean talking

 

[HankR]

Where's the bullet go? They mention that they have done 19 drops but no marks to the garage door? and only the garage door to stop a ricochet?

And wearing shorts and tennis shoes?

The slide does not retract?

Walt Kuleck is no dummy. Since he's just checking to see if the firing pin and set off the primer, he doesn't need a (fully) loaded round. I know, "all guns are always loaded", but I'm pretty sure Walt is taking the proper precautions.


And Sam, I'm pretty sure I can poop w/out playing with my "gun", but without advance warning I'd have to really fight the urge to not reach my toe out to catch the gun as I saw it falling. Ouch.

 

[9w1911]

not sure what to say about this, when I first started carrying my non plastic antique i realized how I needed to practice going to the freaking bathroom, you practice how to draw w it, practice how to piss w it. im talking about a gun not 'your' gun lol

 

[1911Tuner]

It looks as if Walt Kuleck already posted a video

Walt used a primed case. I'm gonna use a live round to see what happens when a gun is dropped muzzle down and fires for real.

Stay tuned.

 

[gym]

You never try to catch a falling knife, tool, soldering gun or iron, torch, any sharp object, or especially a gun. But I would go as far as to say that if you have super fast ninja reflexes, you might cushion the drop with a rubber shoe like a sneaker. If it was going to go off, it may not if it hits a soft surface. that's a maybe as it is going to hit the ground, you get to judge if it's better off hitting the rubber shoe or the tile floor.
Mine was similar to Trents, "fell out of a shoulder rig, 2 x in 40 yrs., neither went off, one was German Walther, and one was Glock 30. No more shoulder holsters.
But I did watch, "from a safe spot", a gun store owner, throw a Glock 19 from a 10 ft ladder 10 times in a row. He was proving a point to another mentally challenged gun owner, that it would not go off. I used a concrete wall, between me and the magic trick, as my vantage point.
It didn't go off, he had done this earlier the same day, I would imagine that eventually it will disappoint him.

 

[ATLDave]

And Sam, I'm pretty sure I can poop w/out playing with my "gun", but without advance warning I'd have to really fight the urge to not reach my toe out to catch the gun as I saw it falling. Ouch.

Unless your toe and shoe are made of concrete, there's an excellent chance that the gun would decelerate less quickly upon contact with your foot. That will reduce the likelihood of the firing pin inertia overcoming the spring and setting off the primer. Now, I ain't gonna try it, but....

 

[TheCracker]

That wouldn't have happened with a glock. Heck wouldn't even have happened with a $250 Tuarus.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Walt used a primed case. I'm gonna use a live round to see what happens when a gun is dropped muzzle down and fires for real.

Stay tuned.

I know you've got something in mind already for this, and I'm dying to see/read about the results.

I was thinking about a styrofoam block, carved out to hold the gun in the proper position. Two brass or aluminum hobby tubes could be used as guides to keep the block, and thus the gun, properly oriented during the drop. The styrofoam block could then be set up with two vertical guide rods which pass through the guide tube. Raise the block to a given height, secure it with a simple latch/string, stand at a safe distance/shelter, and tug to release.

The styrofoam block will not add any appreciable weight to the jig the gun is in, so effectively you won't be adding any additional weight to the gun as it falls. Might run the block a couple times just to see if you need to add any counter weights to "balance" it such that it falls on it's own, enough to counter the friction of the jig.

Using a more sturdy mounting block, such as wood, wouldn't make it fall faster...but it MIGHT skew the results a little bit by not allowing the pistol to "bounce" like it normally would upon impact. Not sure it that will make a difference, but hey...

Instead of just a tire, perhaps get a round trash can, cut the bottom off so it's just a cylinder, then line it with a large piece of construction paper. The paper will serve to mark the impingement of all the fragments and the cylinder will give you a greater height to measure them by.

Sit the cylinder down inside the old tire so the tire can catch the majority of fragments that make it through. If any do...the cylinder might also give you a better idea of the energy of the fragments. If nothing, or few, escape the cylinder, it'll give you some idea of the element of danger caused by the fragments.

Anyway, just a thought. I'm dying to see how you do this.

 

[Trent]

Would be REAL interesting to see if it could be arranged with a high speed camera and a nice thick piece of LEXAN between the gun and the camera.

Unfortunately those high speed camera thingies cost a lot of other green thingies, even just to rent.

 

[Greg528iT]

Chief, sounds a little complicated. make it simple, a wire pulled tight. a tube similar to one we put on testers rockets. no real weight added to the gun. glue or solder the tube the frame. secure the wire to the floor to the ceiling. stand on ladder, drop. Oh maybe a concrete block on the floor.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Chief, sounds a little complicated. make it simple, a wire pulled tight. a tube similar to one we put on testers rockets. no real weight added to the gun. glue or solder the tube the frame. secure the wire to the floor to the ceiling. stand on ladder, drop. Oh maybe a concrete block on the floor.

I don't think it's all that complicated, but hey...any reasonable means, right?

 

[Trent]

Chief, sounds a little complicated. make it simple, a wire pulled tight. a tube similar to one we put on testers rockets. no real weight added to the gun. glue or solder the tube the frame. secure the wire to the floor to the ceiling. stand on ladder, drop. Oh maybe a concrete block on the floor.

Good idea! except for the standing on ladder over gun part.

Straw, duct taped to slide.

Drill a hole through both sides of a normal concrete construction block, slide 6' steel rod through. put block on floor. Now you have a concrete block on the floor with a long 6' steel rod sticking up.

Clothes pin with string.

Put gun (via straw hole) on to rod, the clothes pin stops it from sliding down the rod to hit the floor.

Pull string attached to clothes pin, gun slides straight down to hit the floor directly on muzzle.

Bang. Or no bang.

(only problem is if it goes bang, that concrete block will get obliterated)

Edit; I bet you could just use a masonry bit to drill a small hole in an already existing concrete slab to put the rod in, that'd work better and not be as brittle as an open-body construction block.

 

[1911Tuner]

Chief...we're thinkin' along the same lines. I'd use a metal garbage can, though...with a smaller hole in the lid to drop it throuh, and to contain anything that might get out.

My plan is to use the slide and barrel only, wrapped with tape to keep the barrel lugs engaged, with lead ingots attached to compensate a little for the recoil spring's resistance to the slide. It's more likely to drop straight down without the frame, and it's all that's really needed.

My bet is that it won't do much.

When the bullet hits the concrete, it'll stop and deform. The barrel may bulge, because it's essentially a barrel obstruction. Pressure will be well below peak, so it's not likely that it'll split, but if it does...the pressures will vent into the slide, and the bullet may not even clear the muzzle. Or...if it does...it won't have enough velocity remaining to do more than raise a welt. Think about how bullets that hit steel perpendicularly tend to drop or at the very most...only bounce for a short distance.

On the concrete fragments...think about this: You can hit concrete with a ball peen hammer about as hard as the 230-grain bullet would without doing much more than knocking a shallow dent. The fragments would be small, and present little danger beyond a superficial wound to the skin...and they'd launch at a low angle from the impact. A leather shoe would probably stop'em.

That's my theory anyhoo.

 

[Greg528iT]

a styrofoam block, carved out to hold the gun in the proper position

and

Two brass or aluminum hobby tubes could be used as guides to keep the block, and thus the gun, properly oriented during the drop

aligning 2 guide tubes to be parallel to fit to 2 guide rods. sounds harder than aligning 1.

Then finding straight guide rods long enough to test various heights. I assume a test of higher than 3 ft. A length of wire pulled taught would be able to cover 1 ft to as high as you'd want to go.

Since he's committed to dropping a gun on it's nose, soldering a copper tube to the side of the frame or slide won't damage it anymore than it's already going to be, IF duct tape doesn't hold well enough.

A eye bolt can be secured to the floor, wood or concrete real easy.. 1 hole to drill.. drilling 2 holes to secure 2 rods, making sure they are exactly the right spacing as the spacing in the foam, so no binding occurs.. Hmmmmm I'd rather drill just the one.

if the eye bolt stands too proud and or want to have a chance to try multiple impacts without a possible concrete crater to affect the results, use a concrete patio block set flush to the wire.. move the block on each attempt.

Tuner is not worried about bullet splatter or so it seems.. actually I'd rather have my legs above the plane of the impact, just in case of concrete splatter. If one is worried about standing on a ladder, yes a remote release can be quickly made.

 

[Greg528iT]

actually.. if one was not concerned about the thumb safety and slide stop being in place (appropriate pins put in place) the the 1911 already has a perfectly functional guide tube staked to the side.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'd rather have my legs above the plane of the impact, just in case of concrete splatter.

I plan to contain it at ground level, either with a metal garbage can or two old tires. I'm adventurous. I'm not stupid.

The more I think about it, the more I have my doubts as to whether the bullet will even make it out of the barrel.

The slide will behave exactly the same as it does when it's on the frame. It'll move when the bullet starts to move. Since the bullet nose will hit the concrete, that means that the slide will move less than a 10th inch at impact. Remaining pressure will continue to drive the slide and barrel backward...against their mass and against the bullet's frictional contact with the barrel, attempting to drive them apart. My bet is that it'll all come to a screeching halt before the bullet can exit...or at least before it can exit with much oomph left.

 

[ATLDave]

Please, please video this test, 'Tuner. I cannot wait to see it.