Varget vs IMR4064 for .308 accuracy loads

[918v]

How does 4064's temperature sensitivity manifest itself? Pressure spikes, POI shifts, or accuracy consistency?

POI shifts with each 10 degree drop in temperature. Once you get close to freezing temp, the POI drops like a rock. The accuracy changes as well unless you have a magic rifle. Varget, on the other hand, slows down a little bit (because no powder is completely temp insensitive) but it stays consistent in the cold.

308 (165grs and up) + Varget is like peanutbutter and jelly... mmmmmm.

 

[jerkface11]

A good long range competition load that's properly fitted for a match rifle will yield between 8-12fps maximum velocity deviation.

Which chronograph is good enough to tell you that??

 

[Trent]

Well, that's the kicker, isn't it. None are that accurate, not even doppler. And - even if they were - how would you be certain?

Optical ones like the ProDigital are pretty reliable for how much they cost (they've got very cheap lately!!). They claim 1% accuracy (+/- 30fps @ 3000fps), but when using them in pairs with good conditions and good setup, I've seen first hand they are capable of better than 0.5%.

I have to make absolutely sure the muzzle blast doesn't screw it up, most people put chronographs WAY too close to the discharging weapon then scratch their heads trying to figure out why their numbers are all over the place. I usually put mine out at 20' and 25' for rifles. Fresh batteries are a must. Have to make the shooting plane and the chronograph line up as squarely as possible; bubble levels fixed to the body and a good, solid, adjustable tripod help there. Clouds and snow .. forget about getting reliable results and leave the chronographs at home; just go shoot.

Given proper conditions, and set up, I'll usually see around +/- 10fps difference reported between my pair. Your mileage may vary. I feed all the data out via USB. By averaging out the differences between the pair of chronographs for each shot, prior to doing standard deviation, it helps iron out equipment irregularities.

I should have, perhaps, been more careful with phrasing. Rather than specifically name a fps, or some arbitrary number which will vary from caliber to caliber, what you are really after is a very low standard deviation across the mean. Measuring errors and fliers will be ironed out in statistical analysis, you're after a taller "curve" in analysis. Whereas, if your shots consistently fall across a short, broad curve (higher SD), velocity is not as consistent; and neither will exterior trajectory. SD will be higher.

Any statistical analysis gathered are meaningless without comparison sets to build trending patterns, which is why conditions are so important when working up a load - not just for the weapon, but also the measuring equipment. I can't get reliable results about 1/2 of the year in Illinois, there's either snow on the ground, it's cloudy, or the sun goes down before I get off work and can get to the range.

Anyway, absolute min and max don't matter nearly as much as how the data populates across the curve for standard deviation. Comparing loads side by side in this fashion can yield good results to form opinions on whether the ammunition in one load is "more consistent" than others. It irons out inconsistencies that simply measuring maximum group size, would NOT be visible.

In short, I don't care if I can shoot a group of a given size at a given distance once; no matter HOW good or bad a load or rifle is, there's always a chance all the planets will align once in a lifetime for a perfect group. Rather, I want to know (with some certainty) how often I can put down a particular size group at a given range. That's why statistics are important - it answers the question we're after - How likely am I to put all of my shots in a given area, in these conditions, with this rifle, with this load, at this distance.

 

[joed]

I use Varget in my .308 Win, and it has worked quite well. For that reason I've stayed with it. The .308 in not finicky with powders and I'd be willing to bet it will give excellent accuracy with almost all popular powders.

Look at all the posts and you can see everyone has a different opinion on what works the best. That's not a bad thing. That tells me if I couldn't get Varget there are a lot of other powders that will work just as well.

 

[Walkalong]

A good long range competition load that's properly fitted for a match rifle will yield between 8-12fps maximum velocity deviation.

Which chronograph is good enough to tell you that??

You have to take chrono readings with a little bit of faith. The guys who need that small deviation in their loads can tell on target if the chrono was telling the truth.

Everything is backed up by on target results with the serious target shooters. On target results are all that matter in the end.

 

[Adair]

I like Varget in my 308 with 150 gr pills. Someone mentioned IMR8208. I have loaded it in another caliber and I am loving it. IMR 4895 and H4895 are not the same but I hear that IMR and H 4895 are often recommended for 308.

 

[Trent]

You have to take chrono readings with a little bit of faith. The guys who need that small deviation in their loads can tell on target if the chrono was telling the truth.

Everything is backed up by on target results with the serious target shooters. On target results are all that matter in the end.

^^ I like his answer better. Not only did that make more sense, but it was also much shorter and straightforward.

 

[black timber]

H4895 has given me the best accuracy in .308, but Varget is a very close second.

 

[black timber]

Actually, when I think about it a couple of the .308s i've worked with did like Varget better so H4895/Varget, either one.

 

[ranger335v]

"We're not skipping anything Offhand...I'm asking a very specific question with regards to these two powders and YOU'RE assuming other accuracy factors have not been addressed"

Yeah, you are skipping some important stuff. Like asking a specfic question that presumes our rifles will love what your rifle loves. Fact is, there is so little difference between Varget and 4064 that it isn't as clear cut a thing as you seem to suppose. Technically your question is like asking if 12 year old red headed girls prefer peach or strawberry ice cream. Individually... maybe it's neither. ??

 

[Funshooter45]

Varget worked well, but RL-15 works just a bit better for me. Dunno why, it just does.

 

[R.W.Dale]

"We're not skipping anything Offhand...I'm asking a very specific question with regards to these two powders and YOU'RE assuming other accuracy factors have not been addressed"

Yeah, you are skipping some important stuff. Like asking a specfic question that presumes our rifles will love what your rifle loves. Fact is, there is so little difference between Varget and 4064 that it isn't as clear cut a thing as you seem to suppose. Technically your question is like asking if 12 year old red headed girls prefer peach or strawberry ice cream. Individually... maybe it's neither. ??

Why why why is it so hard to comprehend that this thread is asking about one specific thing. Why does the fact that it's about one thing cause THR's members to go into some hyper myopic mode and ASSUME right out of the blue for no reason whatsoever. That any other myriad accuracy factors aren't being addressed by ME off the web simply because I haven't ran them by you guy's approval first.

Please explain to me RANGER given the information provided in THIS THREAD what exactly I'm NOT doing?



And FYI these powders are different enough to justify a discussion. We've already had commentary on the differences in temperature sensitivity and it's effect on accuracy for example.

If that's OK with you I'd like to get more input on this subject if that's not OK might I suggest clicking on another one of the thousands of threads here in handloading and reloading. Cause honestly your input is SO vague it could literally apply to just about EVERY thread here all you'd have to do is change Varget and 4064 to I dunnow (WSR and CCI400) (rem vs fed) (ballistic tip vs SST) (RCBS vs Lee) after all any thread here about components is utterly pointless according to your reasoning.

 

[MCMXI]

R.W.Dale, all I can add to this discussion is that I only use three powders for .308 Win. These include Reloder 15, Varget and IMR 4895. I also use Varget for my .223 Rem ARs. What I've noticed is that Varget likes to be compressed and my best Varget loads (most accurate, most consistent) are of this type. A good friend of mine uses Varget with CCI BR2 primers and regularly shoots tiny groups from a number of high-end .308 Win rifles that he has. He favors the 175gr SMK HPBT. Basically, I doubt you could go wrong with Varget and frankly, will be VERY surprised if you don't shoot tiny groups using that powder. Since you have a 30" barrel, it'll be very intersting to see your results.

If you're interested, my "pet" load for my .308 Win is as follows:

178gr A-MAX
44.2gr Reloder 15
CCI 200 primer
Lapua brass
MV = 2,650 fps at 1800' DA

My friends super accurate Varget load for his Knights SR-25 is as follows:

175gr SMK HPBT
43.5gr Varget
CCI BR2 primer
Winchester brass
MV = ?

 

[ranger335v]

"Please explain to me RANGER given the information provided in THIS THREAD what exactly I'm NOT doing?"

The point is, your 'simple and specific' question of which of two powders is more accurate is invalid because it's based on a stack of false premises, leaving you to chase an illusion. Perhaps the major issue being that powders, as such, aren't accurate, rifles are and many more powders give excellant accuracy than those two. No matter.

Varget is the only correct answer. Hope that helps!

 

[cougar1717]

Since I've never shot the OP's rifle, unfortuanately I have no idea which powder will be more accurate. Traditionally, 308 Win would use a powder near the 4895 burn rate with 150gr-180gr bullets. There's no shortcuts in load development. There's no way to know without testing. I've had loads that shoot excellent groups in one rifle only shoot average groups in another rifle of the same caliber.

 

[jerkface11]

ranger what you're not getting is that he wants to know which one was more accurate for you.

 

[Trent]

With those two powders, you're splitting hairs on accuracy unless there's big temp differences. Then Varget will win on cold bore shots, hands down. Metering is better with Varget in my experience.

I still have some 4064 on my shelf, but it's been sitting there for a long time. Varget shoots better in my FN-AR (308), and Yugo M76 (in 8x57). But, I do most of my loading and shooting in the winter, where temps can change dramatically from one weekend to the next, so I like the very minor differences in burn rate compared to other traditional powders. No stuck cases come summer time, after a winter spent working up loads.

 

[jpwilly]

R.W. Dale,

I've done quite a bit of loading for my savage and it has a factory barrel. IMO your rifle has more potential accuracy than my rig.

155gr AMAX Palma 46gr AA2520, Fed Case, CCI Primers COAL 2.800" Chrono'd at 2810fps. Shot cloverleaf's with this and was the most accurate of the day. Shot a ten round group no fliers one ragged hole! Nice velocity and SD numbers very happy with this powder and bullet combo.

168gr AMAX Ladder Loads 42.3, 42.7, 43.1, 43.4, & 43.7gr Varget, Fed Case, CCI Primers COAL 2.800" Chrono's from a low of 2630fps to 2700fps These shot well but had an occasional flier. Velocities were 30-50fps high on fliers. I'm pretty sure neck tension was the issue.

168gr SMK 43.7gr Varget, Fed Case, CCI Primers COAL 2.800" Chrono's at 2700fps. These shot very well .6 &.7" 5 shot groups with the edge still going to the 155 AMAX...

175gr SMK 43.5gr Varget, Fed Case, CCI Primers COAL 2.800" Chrono's at 2690fps. These wouldn't settle in at all. and groups opened up...I'm going to pull these apart and work up lighter ladder loads. I have a feeling they were over driven. Fed Gold Medal Match is 2625fps...No pressure signs with this load though.

My 168gr SMK load is suppose to duplicate Fed Gold Medal Match and it's spot on. Standard Deviation numbers were way low too I shot 3 in a row that duplicated the same 2700 FPS as the previous shot (Pro Chrony).

 

[Trent]

jpwilly, are you doing any brass prep whatsoever on those Federal cases? Are they once-fireds from that rifle? Were they match to begin with?

You gotta like Savage barrels, when they're good, they're real good. I've had a couple (one in 308 and one in 270) that couldn't hold a group no matter what I ran through them, but the 300 Win Mag and 22-250 barrels have been rather spectacular. Even the guy at Krieger was singing Savage's praises when I was shooting the bull with him while ordering my new 300 barrel. Speaks volumes, I think, to hear one of the top barrelsmiths in the world praise a "factory" over barrel quality.

 

[Trent]

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=115991

Thought I'd toss a link to this brass. While we're on the subject of accuracy, the Nosler Custom brass was the first, and only time, I've ever ordered brass and NOT found flaws of any kind. Weight was uniform, primer holes were perfectly trimmed and deburred, and the neck tension was spot on from one round to the next with no turning required. It's a huge time saver when you get brass that, for all intents and purposes, is match quality to start with.

Toss some Varget, and SMK's in those, and game-on..

 

[jpwilly]

jpwilly, are you doing any brass prep whatsoever on those Federal cases? Are they once-fireds from that rifle? Were they match to begin with?

My brass is once fired Fed (from the power shok ammo at WalMart). My brass prep is pretty straight forward. I've gone over the few hundred pieces of brass and threw out 2 that weighed much different than the others. I FL resize in a Lee die just bumping back everything a few thou pretty much right to SAAMI spec. I clean primer pockets and flash hole trim to 2.005" and chamfer the mouth. Nothing special really.