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Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by rugerdude, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. rugerdude

    rugerdude Active Member

    Aug 14, 2004
    Okay, so this has really been getting to me recently and I was wondering what others think of it.

    I can not stand it when people refer to a gun as a weapon system. In the Marines it gets thrown out a lot in reference to individual small arms like the M-16A4 or M4. "Clear that malfunction and get your weapon-system back in the fight." or "Transition to another weapon-system." I've also seen civilian shooters refer to a rifle or pistol as such.

    Weapon-system doesn't have to be thrown out all willy-nilly like this. It could mean a weapons family like the AR family or the AK family. It could also refer to a firearm that is composed of two different weapons like the M4/M203. That's fine, and accurately describes the subject, but when did we start tacking "system" onto the end of things to make it seem like we're thinking of things in such different terms? That's a pistol, call it one. Weapon I can live with, but hey, isn't a knife a weapon too? Why can't a gun be called a gun anymore?

    Anyway, I usually try try to correct people (who I'm on friendly terms with) by asking to borrow a pen-system.
  2. mcdonl

    mcdonl Senior Member

    Nov 24, 2008
    Southern Maine
    I consider any gun that is modular, can be made in different configurations and has many available accessories a system.

    A revolver, is a revolver... an M9 is a pistol...

    A 1911 is a system. You can have different length barrels with the same frame, you can add rails, change calibers, etc... but all with the same core elements....

    Same for long guns...

    That's my take on it. A Savage Bolt action is a rifle, an AR-15 is a system.
  3. franconialocal

    franconialocal Active Member

    Oct 21, 2008
    New Hampshire
    It's like the whole clip v. magazine argument....and I certainly don't mean any offense by this to the OP, but it's just something you'll have to get over. Personally, being a LEO I refer to the full compliment of my sidearm, baton, taser, pepper spray, AR, and shotgun as my weapon system, and I can certainly understand your angst with this but hey....what can you do, right?
  4. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Mentor

    Jun 6, 2006
    Howard County, Merry Land
    Tomato, tomahtoe. Different people call things by different names. As Franconia said, you'r probably just going to have to get over it or deal with it.
  5. oldbear

    oldbear Participating Member

    Nov 1, 2009
    South East Coast
    For whatever its worth I have to agree with the OP to much military jargon has found its way into normal civilian speak. What’s next, your car is a transportation system, your clothing is a wardrobe system, and is dinner your mess system? :what:
  6. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Mentor

    Sep 26, 2006
    all over Virginia

    Whenever I'm leaving the house, I run through the following checklist.

    Keys... check
    Wallet... check
    Cellphone... check
    Blinky-joint... check

    A buddy of mine borrowed that term, "blinky-joint" from a street urchin.
    Just stuck with me.

    I don't do systems.
    Except when my "system" is out of whack, which usually means I have lots of gas.

    GIJOEL Member

    Feb 5, 2010
    Milwaukee, WI
    Actually my car is a POV (personally owned vehicle) unless I'm filling out a travel voucher, then it's a POC (personally owned conveyance). A weapon comes in primary or secondary form or crew served. Primary is shoulder fired, secondary is a sidearm, crew serve is mounted on something. This avoids having to refer to a "primary" as a; m-249, m-16a2, m-16a4, m-4, m-4 with a m-203 attached blah blah blah... It started with instructors needing a universal term. What I can't figure out is how (or why) my "gear" has transformed into "kit".
  8. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

    Oct 10, 2006
    North Idaho

    Well, if you can convert something from a rifle to a grenade launcher in under 30 seconds, from a semi-auto shoulder-fired rifle to a full-auto bipod-mounted unit in a similar time frame then, yeah, okay, I'm fine with "system."

    If you have to tear it down, install a bunch of parts, reassemble it, and it's several minutes, I'm less inclined to say "system" about it. Now it's more like a "convertible" pistol or rifle.

    A "system," in my eyes, is epitomized by the Zorg Industries ZF-1.
    [​IMG] . . . [​IMG]

    Now that's a system!

    Of course, that's just me.

    I could be wrong.

  9. danprkr

    danprkr Participating Member

    Apr 26, 2009
    +1 for the Zorg ZF-1

    And here I thought it was just a term the mall ninjas borrowed from the military which of course has to have a big dramatic name for everything. Trust me, I hear someone say, "weapon system" and they aren't wearing a military uniform my immediate reaction is, "mall ninja, stay away." I then back slowly away avoiding eye contact, but never taking my eyes off them.
  10. XM855

    XM855 New Member

    Dec 12, 2010
    Houston/Austin, Texas
    +2 on the Zorg ZF-1.

    It shoots - gun.

    It shoots, stabs, lights things up with lights and lasers, has an incorporated variable zoom parallax free quick target acquisition sight, and a bipod that shoots out of a vertical foregrip that latches onto a rail - weapon system.
  11. Grunt Medic TXARNG

    Grunt Medic TXARNG Member

    Dec 26, 2010
    San Antonio, TX
    An M4 is a rifle. An M4 with rails, CCO red dot, ACOG scope, laser(s), flashlight, and thermal sights is a system, due to its multiple configurations. Hence the official nomenclature when outfitted with rails - "M4 MWS - Modular Weapons System".

  12. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Mentor

    Jan 6, 2011
    Hastings, Michigan
    Military terminology just doesn't fit right into civilian speak. Just like most criminal terminology doesn't fit into my vernacular, I've left behind the vast majority of mil-speak after I re-entered civilian life. I can tacticool as many of my guns as I want, but my 'tricked out' 12 gauge is still just a shotgun, not a weapon-system. I never liked the term when I wore the uniform, I certainly won't use it now.
  13. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 25, 2002
    Down East in NC
    An individual rifle is a weapon. A family of rifles can be considered a weapons system or a platform.

    It would sound weird to refer to an individual AR or M16/M4 as a "weapons system", but it makes sense to refer to "the AR-15 platform" or similar when discussing the whole family of AR-15 type rifles.
  14. rocky branch

    rocky branch Member

    Apr 11, 2009
    I carried a M2 Carbine and a Car 15 in RVN.
    Pretty straightforward pieces, except the telescoping stock-suspicious precurssor...

    Todays stuff looks more like a system than a piece.
    Add ons, combos, ad nauseum.
    If it works, though, I don't care what they call it.

    As a paratrooper i was always amused by stiff necked references to "the aircraft"
    In briefings, training, etc.
    The AF giys, including pilots always said "airplane."
  15. gaijin6423

    gaijin6423 New Member

    Jan 24, 2011
    Eastern NC
    Back in my military aircraft maintainer and flight student days, we would refer to things like the F-18's vulcan cannon, the AH-1's 20mm cannon, and various missiles/rockets as weapon systems. I've also heard tankers refer to their main gun and associated components as a weapon system, and submarine guys refer to their Tridents as weapon systems. To me, that makes sense, as it's a large, complicated collection of different devices that work in unison towards firing something.

    Most of the time, we never used the term weapon system to refer to anything like individual small arms or crew served weapons. Rifles were always rifles, pistols were always pistols, unless they were referred to as 'the weapon'. Automatic weapons we always referred to by nomenclature, or their nicknames, like The Pig.

    In fact, the only time I generally heard things referred to as a weapon system was when someone who thought too highly of themselves was involved.

    Personally, I like to be specific when referring to arms, and I typically stick with 'rifle' and 'pistol'.
  16. HBrebel

    HBrebel New Member

    Jan 24, 2011
    HB CA
    love that zorg. lingo is lingo guys. military is a little different than cops and cops are a little different than civilians. just let it go and worry about shooting. I say clip because I always have and its easier to say than magazine. Just like when reading I prefer magazine over periodical. all that concerns me as far as guns is my shooting ability, ammo supply and my second amendment rights.
  17. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Elder

    Dec 30, 2002
    Deep in the Ozarks
    It stems from something called the Systems Approach. A long time ago, the services realized that the cost of a new item -- weapon, vehicle, or what-have-you -- had to include many other things. Spare parts, training, accessories, maintenance elements and so on. To determine what a new rifle, helicopter, etc., would cost, it had to be considered as a system -- with everything accounted for and costed out.

    Now the term "system" has become a buzzword.
  18. MartinS

    MartinS Active Member

    Oct 15, 2004
    For reasons that have not yet revealed themselves to me it has become the fashion for even the Bubba Bob's who, above all others, should know better, to speak like technocrats. To grab and use any piece of jargon that sounds smarter and more complicated than what you presently use because if you sound smart and complicated you are. Excuse me now, I have go apply a boundry layer anti-friction polyfilm to my platform.
  19. danez71

    danez71 Senior Member

    Aug 17, 2009
    I think you meant to say "weapon-system". ;)
  20. lilquiz

    lilquiz New Member

    May 30, 2010
    north carolina
    I put "hook-pile" tape on my "weapons system":D

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