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What is the "love" with weopons?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Loud Dogg, May 10, 2004.

  1. Loud Dogg

    Loud Dogg member

    May 10, 2004
    portland oregon
    I now that this is not a place for a person that is against gun rights.

    But please understand, that i want to know what the attraction is with weopons.
    -what is the use for handguns?
    -what is the use for assalt rifles?

    I love violent games, but actual weopons seem to be sometheing NOT to be in america. Its the irresponsible people that missuse guns, i know that. but the death tole in america is to ban them so NO ONE will get hurt.

    hunting rifles can be understandable... but handguns are made to KILL PEOPLE. what else is the use?

    please respond.

    (i think it is good to always have an opposing side to understand what is happening)
  2. sm

    sm member

    Dec 22, 2002
    Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
    "Metal and Wood"

    "Metal and Wood" by Dennis Bateman


    The following essay was originally published at www.TheFiringLine.com

    It is a rare person who does not attach some sort of value or emotion to some physical object or to an event. A home becomes more than a building. A statue of the Virgin Mary, a crucifix, a flag or a song, or even a photograph can stir emotions greater than the value of the material item.

    I have a piece of paper showing I served in the military until I was discharged honorably. But, oh, the memories that piece of paper conjures up. The friends, the fun times. The bad times. The times when we were bound closer to strangers than to our own families and, in frightening chaos, our lives hung by a thread.

    Many of our friends died far from home. Ask us about the feeling of "American soil" upon returning to the land we loved. Ask those returning soldiers about America.

    Remember the old, faintly humorous band of American Legionnaires, wearing out-dated military uniforms straining at the buttons. But, God how proudly they marched. Grinning, waving to friends and families, and always, always "The Flag!" Ask them if the flag is mere cloth, I dare you.

    See the elderly lady sitting in a lawn chair watching the fourth of July parade. Three flags carefully folded some forty years ago into triangles now rest in her lap - one for each lost son. Ask her if those flags are mere cloth, I dare you.

    Look at the old man quietly crying, leaning against the Iwo Jiima Memorial at Arlington Cemetery. As he turns to you, smiles with some embarrassment, and says in a choked whisper, "I was there." Ask him, "Is it just metal and clay?" Ask him. I dare you.

    The Wall. My God, the Wall. See the young man lightly tracing the name of his father there inscribed. Ask him if its just rock. Ask him. I dare you.

    My guns? They’re of little real value compared to my family and my home. They are toys, or tools, or both. But what those guns represent to me is greater than all of us, greater than myself, my family, indeed greater than our entire generation. What could be of such value?

    The freedom of man to live within civil, self-imposed limitations rather than under restrictions placed upon him by a ruler or a ruling class.

    Imagine the daring, the bravery of a few men to declare they intended to create a new country, independent of the burden of their established Rulers!

    Those men we call our forefathers were brilliant men. They could have maneuvered themselves into positions of influence within the structure of the times, but they did not. They struggled to free themselves from tyranny. They wrote the Declaration of Independence. And they backed up their words and ideals with metal and wood.

    They knew the dangers of such dreams and actions. They knew it was a frightening and dangerous venture into the unknown when they dared reach beyond their grasp for a vision - for an ideal. But they dared to dedicate themselves to achieve Liberty and Freedom for their children, and their children’s children, through the generations.

    Imagine the dreams and yearnings of centuries finally being reduced to the written word. The Rights of "We the People!" instead of the "Powers of the Monarchy."

    Our forefathers dared to create a new government - a new form of government. And they knew that any organization has, as its first and foremost goal, its continued existence. Second only to that it strives to increase its power. It plots, it devises, it maneuvers to achieve control over its environment - over its subjects.

    Our Forefathers decided to make America different from any country, anywhere, at any time in the entire history of the entire world. This country, this new nation of immigrants, would be based upon the concept that people could rule themselves better than any single person or small group of persons could rule them.

    Other countries have had outstanding documents with guarantees for its citizens - but the citizens have become enslaved. How, these great men pondered, can we ensure this new government will remain subject to the will of the People?

    They wanted limits upon this new government. Therefore, our forefathers wrote limitations into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And one of those Rights was that metal and wood, as the final power of the people, would secure this country for the future generations.

    Metal and wood were the means by which we won our freedom.

    Metal and wood were the means by which we kept our freedom.

    Metal and wood may be the means by which we regain our freedom.

    Metal and wood are the final power of the people. Take away the metal and wood and the people become powerless - they can only beg, they supplicate for favors.

    We are unique in our ability to rule ourselves but we are letting it slip away. Today we compromise. We try to appease man’s insatiable appetite for power by throwing him bits of our freedoms. But the insatiable appetite for power can not be appeased. The freedoms we feed him only make us weaker and him stronger. We must conquer him and again ensure the "Blessings of Liberty" won for us by our forefathers.

    We must be ready to use metal and wood again, for if we are ready, truly ready, we may be able to conquer the monster with words - for in its heart it is a coward. But if we continue to feed the monster our freedoms, we will become too weak to win, to weak even to fight, and we will become a conquered people. We will have sold ourselves and our future generations into servitude.

    If words fail us, we will use metal and wood, we will regain what we have lost, we will achieve what we seek, we will guarantee the America of our forefathers for the future generations.

    So you see, our guns are more than metal and wood. They are our heritage of freedom. They are the universally understood symbol that the government, no matter how big and strong it may be, answers to us! They are the tools we will use to prevent tyranny in the land of our forefathers and our children. So, ask me what my guns mean to me. Ask my children what our guns mean to them. Ask us. I dare you.
  3. P-35/53

    P-35/53 New Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Central Florida
    Ok your goal is to see that no one gets hurt - ban cars , matches and beer, and baseball bats and swimming pools and running with scissors. In fact if everybody sets at home we will have less people hurt. If you banned handguns you would have got me hurt when a motorcycle gang decided it would be fun to beat me or kill me- but the fact I had a handgun stopped them . Think about how many people are saved from death or injury simply because handguns are available.Also look at England a country that banned handgun ownership- but they are flooded now with gun crime because of smuggled in guns. We cannot keep drugs out of our country do you think we could stop guns being brought in ?
    Last edited: May 10, 2004
  4. Dionysusigma

    Dionysusigma Senior Member

    Mar 27, 2003
    Okay City
  5. WonderNine

    WonderNine member

    Dec 27, 2002
    always offline!
  6. BerettaNut92

    BerettaNut92 Mentor

    Dec 23, 2002
    Loud Dogg, if guns were illegal, the bad guys would still overpower the good guys since they can gang up on us. Having everyone unarmed is only a little better than having only the bad guys armed.
  7. Harold Mayo

    Harold Mayo Participating Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Hutchinson, Kansas
    Oh, God...I know better than to feed the trolls, but...

    First, THR is open to anyone. Unlike many other boards, THR accepts all opinions...just be prepared to defend your position.

    Second...attraction to weapons? Why not? Weapons have been coveted items since time immemorial. There is no reason to stop now. It's almost an innate thing. If you don't understand it, then there's really no explaining it. Here at THR, a weapon (firearms in particular) in hand means a way to defend your personal liberty and to ensure your safety and that of others.

    To quote Jeff Cooper (a guru to many here):

    Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud...It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thudnerbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of of most men...It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user. It is equally useful in securing meat for the table, destroying group enemies on the battlefield, and resisting tyranny....

    Cooper is actually speaking mainly of the rifle in that quote from his The Art of the Rifle, but the point is the same for all weapons.

    The "use" question is answered in the Cooper quote.

    Actual weapons are something that don't need to be in America? Wrong, wrong, wrong...

    At least you realize that not all people misuse weapons so you probably realize that, since they are subject to misuse, they are NOT in and of themselves bad. They are NOT sentient items that take over the will of the user.

    No one would get hurt if guns were banned? Wrong again. It would be done in other ways. And, of course, once there is no longer an armed citizenry, a tyrannical government is not far behind. In that case, the death toll would be MUCH higher than you could possibly imagine? Are you of a different ethnic persuasion than Caucasian? Worship a different religion than the majority? Hold political or philosophical beliefs that are different from the majority? Do you value the freedom to be able to do so? If you can answer "yes" to any of these questions, then you should never want to see a gun ban of any sort.

    I love it when antis talk about the reduced murder rates in Europe or in Asian countries that have firearms bans or harsh laws. They never seem to want to include the deaths that result when it is a government that kills it's own citizens. Although I haven't researched it, I'll bet that Nazi Germany had a fairly low murder rate...but that doesn't include all those millions of Jews and other minority groups slaughtered, now does it...? How many people are killed by the Chinese government in China even now...? What atrocities are committed against the citizens of some of these governments? What freedoms do they have?

    Lastly...handguns made to "KILL PEOPLE"? Well, they aren't very damned effective at it! The handguns that I own just wouldn't do the job very well at all. Someone needs to get around to designing a handgun that will "KILL PEOPLE"...I'll be the first in line to buy it. My handguns are for my own protection and for the protection of my family as well as for competition. They're actually for whatever purpose that I choose to use them for since they're just tools.

    My hammers are made to HAMMER NAILS, but they can also KILL PEOPLE.

    My kitchen knives are made to CUT MEAT, but they can also KILL PEOPLE.

    My car is made to DRIVE PLACES, but it can also KILL PEOPLE...as a matter of fact, cars kill far more people than firearms. Let's ban them. But cars are more useful, you say? We can tolerate the death toll from cars but not from guns? Take away the guns and see if you can say that...or if your children or grandchildren can do so...IF they have any freedom of speech, that is.

    Fact is, an armed citizenry is the greatest thing going. It ensures democracy and democracy IS the best form of government around bar none.

    Do some research. Don't just listen to propoganda. I think you'll find that people on THIS board would encourage reading a wide variety of sources in your research. That's because we know that you'll find the truth. Ask at some place like DU or some other liberal board and you'd get directed ONLY to propoganda. Hell, at DU, you'd be banned immediately for asking your questions...for voicing an opinion. How's that for freedom of expression...?

    Last edited: May 10, 2004
  8. Oleg Volk

    Oleg Volk Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 19, 2002
    Nashville, TN
  9. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Mentor

    Dec 24, 2002
    Utah, inside the Terraformed Zone
    Fencing is a sport.

    Swords are weapons. Becoming skilled with a sword, or in martial arts, is training yourself to be able to overpower and/or kill and opponent in combat.

    Training with firearms is no different. Being skilled with a gun doesn't make you any more of a potential murder than being skilled with a sword or knowing how to throw a punch.

    Of course, there is the potential for accidents and abuse. But, who is the government to tell me that I can't have a gun because someone ELSE has an accident or breaks the law with one?

    That's the jist of it right there. Responsible gun owners shouldn't be punished for the acts of the minority.

    In any case, a "hunting rifle" can also serve as a "sniper rifle"; "sporting" weapons are just as deadly as "assault" rifles. Saying people should have one kind of gun but not another is really splitting hairs.
  10. atek3

    atek3 Senior Member

    Mar 5, 2003
    SW CT
    Why handguns? At distances of 10 yards or less a handgun is very formidable part of your overall self-defense repetoir. When you are within grappling distance of your attacker, a gun can be a liability, as it can be "taken and used against you" (my favorite MMM quote), which is why knives or juijitsu are good options. Beyond grappling range but within 25 yards handguns are a great choice, relatively small and easy to conceal, it enables anyone from a 110 pound 21 year old lady, to a wheelchair bound 75 year old man the ability to stop an attacker rapidly. Beyond that a rifle is the best tool for protection. The phrase "assault rifle" is a meaningless term, but what I think you mean is a weapon that is based upon a military style rifle that uses a 'high-capacity detachable magazine'. The fact that it is based on military design simply means it will likely be more reliable and trustworthy than a standard hunting rifle. For the advantage of high capacity mags I'd like to use one of Oleg's pictures, with his permission I hope: http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/arms/why30rounders

    If you have any more questions msg me.

    I too play "violent video games" (my handle on BF1942: Desert Combat is "Private Operator", come visit me on the server Lemon Party). However there is a big difference between games, which are fun, and every one walks away from little worse for the wear, and reality, where brutes and thugs assault, rape, or kill you or the ones you love. Given the ineffectiveness of trying to disarm criminals through gun control laws, if you would like to keep your family safe, I'd advice you to take a handgun safety course, heres a list of classes local to you http://www.pun.org/schools.html

    Welcome to the high road, Loud Dogg, pleased to make your acquaintance.

  11. Aikibiker

    Aikibiker Active Member

    Dec 27, 2002
    Daytona, Fl
    I "love" weapons for a number of reasons. First I enjoy the technology involved. Motorcycles and guns are neat things that I can take apart and put back together just like I did with my Legos as a kid. I also like power tools. IT is a testosterone thing in my case. I am a guy I won't apologize for it.

    I also enjoy the discipline inherent in marksmanship and shooting skills. I like pushing myself to see how good I can become. Overcoming obstacles and challenges feels good. If you have never done it I highly suggest changing the oil in your personal vehicle. Or putting in a new starter motor the next time yours goes bad. It will make you feel good when you are done. Kind of like conquering communism with a socket wrench.

    The reasons I like "assault weapon" and handguns have to do with self-defense. I live in Florida. We have hurricanes that do a lot of damage. They can shut down police service for weeks at a time and you are on your own. Military style semiautomatic weapons with large capacity magazines make good looter repellent. Ask any of the Korean shop owners that hauled out their "assault weapons" during the Rodney King riots in LA and they will have first hand accounts.

    That last reason for my "love" of weapons is a lot darker. They ARE designed to kill. Let me explain this. I am 6 feet tall and 175 pounds. I have studied martial arts for years. I have practiced both the flowery forms and the "thug" techniques. I am good at it. I am young, strong and fast. I learn techniques quickly. I don't know you, but chances are I could defeat you in hand to hand combat in the ring or the street. For all of this I am not very high up the food chain when it comes to interpersonal violence. There are people out there that can eat me for breakfast a lot of them in fact. I have seen some evil things in my life and I am only 26. Weapons give me a chance if I ever run afoul of one of these super predators. By having something that allows me to kill easier then with my bare hands I have a better chance to live myself. It is ugly, but that is the way it is.

    I much prefer the first two reasons. The last two however do exist and must be faced.

    If you can tell me a better way to make sure I will make it home alive tomorrow I would sure love to hear it.

    (Quick note: I believe in God and trust him with my safety. However it seems very irresponsible to make him do all the work.)
  12. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Whats a weopon?

  13. Bruce in West Oz

    Bruce in West Oz Member

    Dec 27, 2002
    Western Australia
    Oh, Lawdy, we're running one of these over on the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia Firearms Discussion Board, too:

    A Cat B firearm is, basically, any longarm other than a rimfire or shotgun.

    I don't even offer these trolls the benefit of a courteous reply any more. They come here with a closed mind; they can leave the same way.

    But YMMV. :fire:

  14. PromptCritical

    PromptCritical Member

    May 5, 2003
    The State of the Beaver
    Portland, Huh?

    Have you ever shot a gun before? It is a lot of fun, thats why most of us like guns.
    I bookmarked that link from Atek3. Looks helpful.
    There are a bunch of Highroaders who shoot at some dump near Portland.
    I hope to attend when I get out of the Peoples Republic and back to the Free Country. Your bio says you're only 15, so you'll probably have to ask mom. Try this page: www.a-human-right.com (more shameless Oleg volk plugging. Love that site Oleg!).

    OT: (Not firearms related, usually) Since you are about the right age, here's another plug: www.sss601.org I enjoyed it when I was your age. PM me if you're interested.
  15. racenutz

    racenutz Member

    Nov 3, 2003
    Bellevue, NE
    FYI, In my state (and Iowa's not the only one) hunting deer with what is typically thought of as a "hunting rifle" is considered poaching & is thus illegal. However, hunting with a "magnum" handgun is perfectly legal.
  16. Marko Kloos

    Marko Kloos Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 20, 2002
    Enfield, NH
    Then why do we issue them to police officers?
  17. Harry Tuttle

    Harry Tuttle Senior Member

    Nov 14, 2003
    From a statistical stand point,
    Bathtubs are made to kill people too.
    They are kinda difficult to carry concealed,
    but this new trend for people to carry plastic bottles of water has me worried.

    Some of us like collecting interesting 100 year old technology,
    Guns tend to hold their value better than this moderne digital stuff.

    and there is such a wide variety

    Why, a collector of pre 1900 designed revolvers might need 20
    just to have a good cross section of the designs and manufacturers.

    And Assualt weapons?
    Why that, Eugene Stoner really made a beautiful machine,
    precisely engineered in 1957, to generate facinating web forum postings.
    Theres dang near 60,000 of this one design sold every year.
    If you believed the nattering mommmies,
    we should all be dead just from looking at pictures of them.

    Instead we spend lovely afternoons at the range,
    perfecting our ability to precisely perferate paper at 100 yards.

    Why would anyone want an automatic transmission in a car?
    All you really need is a 20 horsepower stick shift to drive to work.

    and heck, you can play "jimmie cracked corn" on an acoustic guitar,
    no need for those automatic, machine gun riff playing electric guitars.

    now don't get me started on
    Half caf iced mocha latte skinnie grandes,
    or golf courses

    No one needs that.
  18. artherd

    artherd member

    Dec 7, 2003
    An Elevated Position in the Bay Area, PRK
    Loud Dogg- I would like to invite you to shoot my guns at the local range, so you can personally see exactly what they will, and will not, do.

    They're really not what Hollywood would have you think at all.

    You will see there's really very little difference between a single-shot .22, and a so called 'assault' weapon. They're both guns, and both are powerful tools.

    That's all they are, really. Power tools. So much metal pipe and a wooden handle, with a power source to move some metal.

    In the hands of a good and responsible person, no more dangerous than a Chainsaw.

    In the hands of an immoral person... Well, a chainsaw is bad news there too. As is a car.

    I know you think a world where guns are illegal would be a safe one, but do you really belive that is true?

    Right now, it is illegal to use a gun in a crime (or even have one and plan a crime.) It is also illegal to steal guns.

    But criminals already steal guns and commit crimes! Therefore, they will ALWAYS have guns!

    Since GOOD, MORAL, LAW-ABBIDING people are the only ones who care about laws, gun control laws only leave the 'good guys' un-armed, and defenseless.

    Please respond, The High Road encourages everyone to voice their viewpoint in an effective and respectful mannar. We do not discriminate, and welcome open discussion!
  19. artherd

    artherd member

    Dec 7, 2003
    An Elevated Position in the Bay Area, PRK
    One more statistic that blew my socks clean off when I first heard it.

    In Texas, where all one needs to carry a pistol is to apply for a permit and pay the fees,

    CHL Permit holders are 1/3rd LESS likely to commit a violent crime, THAN THE POLICE!

    Yes, those citizens with handguns are better behaved than the cops. Amazing isnit it?

    The gun owner is your friend. She or He is the kind of person who will stop and help if you're in an accident. He/She will be the kind of person who will not sit quietly by and watch while you and your family are raped.

    These kind of people are the ones we WANT to have guns, for simply by virtue of having them, they make the world a SAFER place for all of us.
  20. Shovelhead

    Shovelhead Active Member

    Apr 24, 2004
    Northern VA / Burkeville, VA
    If you want to live in a place where virtually all guns are illegal,

    Try Washington DC.

    They usually rank #1 or #2 in the nation for gun related Homicides each year.

    Remember the old saying?
    "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"

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