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Whats a AR15 drop in auto safety sear

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Flyboy73, Jun 27, 2006.

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  1. Flyboy73

    Flyboy73 Well-Known Member

    Saw a ad in the current shotgun news for a drop in AR15 auto safety sear.

    I have a bushmaster AR, but i have no idea what that is for?

    Can some enlighten me.

  2. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

    Full auto M16s have slightly different sears due to being select fire.

    If you drilled some holes and put some other parts in with it, that would make your gun full auto. It is fairly complex and doing the conversion is considered "making" a machine gun. There are also sears that "drop in" and are thus considered machine guns themselves.

    The making route is no longer allowed since 1986 and the drop in auto sear is going to run you a ton of money and paperwork. You get ATF preapproval, pay a 200 dollar tax, etc.
  3. PvtPyle

    PvtPyle Well-Known Member

    Illegal and as many suspect, probably a trap. It is a conversion device to make your gun full auto, which is illegal unless you are a 02/07 manufacturer. It has been since 1986.

    I would steer clear.
  4. 444

    444 Well-Known Member

    Absolutely do not buy this item.
    If you don't know what one is, then you can not legally own it.

    However, Pvt. Pyle, please enlighten me on this subject. Couldn't this be purchased as a dealer sample (obviously, if you were an NFA dealer) ?
  5. PvtPyle

    PvtPyle Well-Known Member

    If it has actually been made on a form 1, then yes, an SOT could buy it with a demo letter on a form 3. But trying to buy one and then register it as a post 86 sample would be a felony. If the seller could produce a form 1 then it might be safe.

    Some people will tell you owning just the sear is not a crime, yet the ATF has succesfully prosecuted people for buying them.

    As an SOT, we just make our own. No demo letter, no hassle.
  6. MAUSER88

    MAUSER88 Well-Known Member

    You can legally buy and own that sear, you just can't own an AR15 if you do.
  7. PvtPyle

    PvtPyle Well-Known Member

    No, you can not. You would be in possession of an illegal machinegun. The same thing applies to H&K trigger packs that are select fire as was covered in the legal section of Small Arms Review a few months ago.

    From the ATF web page:


    (M1) The types of firearms that must be registered in [Back]

    Some examples of the types of firearms that must be registered are:

    Machine guns;

    The frames or receivers of machine guns;

    Any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting weapons into machine guns;

    Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for converting a weapon into a machine gun; See this part here? This means an auto sear and the mentioned trigger packs. They have already successfully prosecuted people for owning just these parts. The auto sear is designed soley for the purpose of converting the weapon to full auto.

    Any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;

    Silencers and any part designed and intended for fabricating a silencer;

    Short-barreled rifles;

    Short-barreled shotguns;

    Destructive devices; and,

    "Any other weapon."

    A few examples of destructive devices are:

    Molotov cocktails;

    Anti-tank guns (over caliber .50);

    Bazookas; and,


    A few examples of "any other weapon" are:

    H&R Handyguns;

    Ithaca Auto-Burglar guns;

    Cane guns; and,

    Gadget-type firearms and "pen" guns which fire a projectile by the action of an explosive.

    [26 U.S.C. 5845]

    Then there is this:

    (M17) Are parts which would convert a firearm into an NFA firearm subject to registration? [Back]

    Yes. Examples:

    An M-2 conversion kit (See QuestionM29);

    Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively to convert a weapon into a machine gun. (See Question M1.) This means that the auto sears need to be registered. Period. If they are not, they are controban.

    And there is this:

    (M29) What is a "conversion kit?" [Back]

    A conversion kit is any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun. A conversion kit is a machine gun. for purposes of the NFA. (See Question M17.)

    [26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11]

    So someone please explain to me, and show evidence that these can be lawfully purchased and transfered to an individual without paying any taxes or being subject to the 86 ban on the manufacture and civilian possession of post 86 production machineguns and the parts to convert semi auto weapons to machineguns.
  8. MAUSER88

    MAUSER88 Well-Known Member

    Then how could they possibly sell them if they are illegal to own??? ATF sting, I highly doubt it.
  9. PvtPyle

    PvtPyle Well-Known Member

    You know what, you must be right. None of the evidence listed above could or should prohibit them from selling them, and it isn't even remorely possible that it could be a sting of any type. I dont mean to be an ass, but people do illegal things all the time, and talk about it or publicise it.

    That add has been running for over a decade in SGN, who knows. And since he is only there from 8-11 at night, we will have to wait until then to find out. But they evidence listed above from the ATf web site, and the fact they have convictions for this would not lend me to believe that this is something a freedom loving person would want to be involved with. But if you think it is cool and legal, go ahead and order one.
  10. El Tejon

    El Tejon Well-Known Member

    They sell because under narrow circumstances they are legal to own. As well, BATFE allows them to stay in business as this company if one of ATF's trained dogs that roll over on command.
  11. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Well-Known Member

    A lot of NFA stuff advertised is Class III Dealer or Title II
    manufacturer only, and they get irritated with unlicensed

    The acronym for drop in auto sear is DIAS. Buenos DIAS.
  12. MAUSER88

    MAUSER88 Well-Known Member

    Never said I was interested in ordering one. I was talking about the legality of owning one. I have no use for such an item myself.
  13. rbernie

    rbernie Well-Known Member

    What are the 'narrow circumstances by which this item can be sold? I presume it has something to do with:

    but that sentence made absolutely ZERO sense to me. Is there some layman's explanation to all this available somewhere?
  14. CZguy

    CZguy Well-Known Member

    Possibly the same way illegal drugs are sold.
  15. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

    If it has actually been made on a form 1, then yes, an SOT could buy it with a demo letter on a form 3.

    In laymens terms:

    There are different forms you fill out when dealing with NFA weapons. For example, if you were to buy a suppresor from a dealer, you would fill out a form 4. A form 1 is used for the creation of a new post-86 NFA item by a licensed manufacturer (who is an SOT). An SOT is a Special Occupational Taxpayer, which means somebody who can deal in post '86 NFA items, build, and sell them to law enforcement or the military. A form 3 is what law enforcement fills out when they want to get a post-86 demo item.

    I belive that is correct, but NFA laws make my brain hurt and is why it is reallly nice to have PvtPyle around. :)
  16. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Well-Known Member

    A DIAS drop in auto sear is a machinegun per se.
    If it was legally made and registered on a Form 1 before May 1986
    it is legal to transfer ownership on a Form 4.
    But the DIAS is itself the machinegun, not the AR it is dropped into.
    The DIAS is the registered NFA item, the gun it is dropped in does
    not need to be on the NFA registry, bcause it is just a rifle,
    and is not a machinegun itself..
    But there are complications under certain circumstances.

    If you read Franz Kafka and Lewis Carroll. it helps you understand NFA.
  17. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Well-Known Member

    SOT special occupational taxpayer, please use Form 3.
  18. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

    Carl, Kafka and Carrol, while dropping acid...
  19. rbernie

    rbernie Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Correia. One more question - what is a "post-86 demo item"? Is it any FA bits made after 1986, or is a subset of that class of item?
  20. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

    Pre 1986 items are legally ownable and can be sold (transfered through a dealer) to other regular people. Post 1986 machine guns, and things that are considered machine guns can only be sold to law enforcement agencies or the military.

    Now suppresors and short barreled weapons are different. Though they are still controlled, you can still make new ones since 1986.
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