Which AR-15 upper for 400-500 yard accuracy?

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Maybe a HIGH EXPERT/ LOW MASTER can outshoot Ammo in Standing Position or any of the others but shooters of this class are a very small percent of normal everyday shooters who number in the 1000's or more.
These are the shooters an Appleseed is set up for and I would bet for the larger part, most of the shooters will not outshoot any Wolf or Surplus ammo.
At the prices of ammo today and the fact that it is hard to find, how many of the normal shooters can afford or even want to spend what it takes to become an HIGH EXPERT/MASTER SHOOTER?
An Appleseed is set up to run what you have and learn how to use it. From .22's to most any rifle will work for you if you will listen and do what the Instructors tell you.
[B]The only score you are shooting against is your last one,trying to do better.[/B] A RWVA Boot Camp will be one of the best times you can have even if the only rifle you have is a .22 or SKS.
And yes, people have made rifleman scores shooting an SKS with Wolf ammo or suplus ammo.
 
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These are the shooters an Appleseed is set up for and I would bet for the larger part, most of the shooters will not outshoot any Wolf or Surplus ammo.

How do you zero a rifle if you can't shoot better than 4MOA?
 
don't let the name fool you... "expert" isn't a prestigious or impressive classification in NRA HP :) which is kind of the point of the example. I'm not saying I'm the best evar and can outshoot the ammo. I'm saying I'm in the bottom half of competitors and if I can outshoot it, then everybody else can too.
 
How do you zero a rifle if you can't shoot better than 4MOA?

Once a shooter gets consistant groups, that are in the 4 moa range, it is just a matter of determining how far off the center of the group is, from the desired point of impact.

To "zero" the rifle is nothing more that adjusting the sights to move your groups to the location that you want on the target.

So the "job 1" for any shooter is to get consistant groups. This is a function of the shooter mechanics, less so of the ammo. No doubt that once a shooter gets to the 4 moa level, they can take advantage of "external" improvements to make their groups smaller (better ammo, better sights, better barrels), but the fact is that if you take a 12 moa shooter and hand them all match everything, they are not going to become 2 moa shooters, they will more than likely remain 12 moa shooter.

It is all about the shooter, not the tools. If you hand a bad shooter top shelf equipment, they will still be a bad shooter. Take a good shooter, give him average equipment, he will still be a good shooter.

The fact remains that most shooters have a lot of room for improvement of their skills, even to get to the potential of their rifles.
 
Here we go....




5-13 round stages are how we do things.

.22's work great for the 25m program, and then use centerfire for the extended ranges. I recomend "a .22 to learn, a centerfire to confirm" (a Guyism).

Well said Pacer.

We have a loooong thread on using a 10-22 with a GI sling and techsights to train with at http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.0 Works great to reduce costs durring the 25m course of instruction.

We do not teach highpower shooting. We teach practical marksmanship, from standing, sitting and prone, using both hasty and loop slings.

Fact: To hit a human torso at 500 meters, all you need to do is to shoot 4MOA or better.

At an Appleseed, you will learn IMC, NPOA, 6 steps to firing a shot, Rifleman's cadence, the importance of follow through, and history. You will also learn how to diagnose your own and others groups, ball and dummy drills, how to use your sights as a range finder, and how to teach others.

For a lousy 70 frns for a weekend, or 200 for a Bootcamp.



How do you zero a rifle if you can't shoot better than 4MOA?

You don't. Just get them close (ish), and adjust as they improve. Almost ANY rifle/ammo will get you 4moa. Some won't, so change either one or the other. Kinda like a .22, find the ammo that will work best, and find the cheap ammo that will work "good enough" for practice.

heck, i can outshoot wolf/surplus ammo standing and i'm just shooting scores in the high expert to low master class range.

Good, but it sounds like you consider an Appleseed as a compitition. It isn't. It is only you, your rifle and ammo, and that target. And the timer. I have yet to see wolf shoot below the 4moa standard. Infact, the only really substandard ammo I saw was barnaul, once in 5.56 and once in 7.62x51.

However, if your rifle doesn't like a "cheap" brand for real time long distance, get a couple hundred rounds of the "good stuff" so you can participate in the long distance work. I wonder if the problem with wolf (maybe) is a lower velocity causing issues, and that it may be with in 4moa close, then fall appart on out...... Maybe less evident in a 20 incher over a 16? I don't know.



Other things that I remeber, but don't want to go back to find the quotes for.

Disapator barrels are nice, full sight radius, short barrel. Be sure it had the gas block in the right place, about 4-6 inches back, and that it isn't just a chopped off 20 incher.

Ceiner conversions work well, AFAIK. I heard they are on back order though, depending on the source.

16 inches are fine for the AR. Alot of the basic learning is done at 25m. Then, when you get to full range you will know enough to learn if you want to get a longer barrel or a longer sight radius.

Open sights work fine. If you have bad eyesight, we won't laugh at you if you use a scope. A scope won't make you shoot better, but it will help you see better. We may laugh if you break out the bi-pod though. With a proper sling, you won't need it.

GI web (or nylon, dependent on you) are a perfect, if non flashy sling. We don't train for kicking doors and ninja stuff. We train you to hit far away in the feild with practical gear. That other stuff is found elsewhere for more money.

2 mags per rifle minimum, prefer 4.

Any questions can be researched at www.appleseedinfo.org/smf.

Pacer and I are both Instructors. Funfaler should be. Ken has been with the program for as long as I can remeber.

Give an Appleseed a try sometime. I bet you will learn something.

All we ask is that you leave your ego at the door.

The Guy



ps, we all do this for free because we love doing it. No one makes money off of this thing. We are doing it for the memory of the past and the hope of the future.

For me, the best part is when a kid starts putting things together for the first time, and you see the pure joy at getting nice groups down range.

Or seeing someone come back for the second time, demonstrating that the things you taught them the first time were practiced, and now they want to show you just what they can do now.

I also, along with some other Instructors, have loaned out my rifles and ammo for others to shoot. Wanna shoot my XCR? My NM or loaded M1A? Try out my pistol grip stock on your M-14? Borrow my 10-22 Liberty Training Rifle for your kid? Just ask....
 
You can bring what ever rifle you like, and the instructors will teach you how to shoot. Of course, things will be a lot easier for you if you have a sling and military style peep sights. A 10/22, with TechSights and a USGI web sling won't fail you at 25m.

Any AR-15 upper will give you good accuracy if you are consistant. If you do the same thing everytime the bullet will go where went last time, and you can adjust your sights from there.

Appleseed will help you do that, which is a great(if not the greatest) reason to attend.

Also, If you use a .223 rifle, and have a 1 in 7 twist barrel, use 62 gr bullets. If you have a 1 in 9, use 55 gr bullets.
 
I have a 10/22 with tech-sights and love it, when you put them on make sure the front sight is on tight (don't ask me how i know this:eek:)

As others have said this is not an equipment race or a compitition(well i guess you could say everyone who attends wins:D)
 
Followed up on the 10/22 Liberty Trainer link--an excellent idea! Years ago in high school I shot the Springfield M2 rifle and loved it; eventually got one of my own and prize it.

The 10/22 with a sling, decent trigger, and AR-type sights should make a very good and economical trainer. There are some very old articles in the American Rifleman from the 1930s and 40s concerning .22 caliber shooting all the way out to 300 yards. I copied the elevation and windage charts and still have them. Always thought that was a good way to train good shooters at minimal cost, not to mention good sport.

Nice to see someone thinking outside the box for a change. Sometimes less is more...
 
+1 on funfaler 10-22 recommendation - the AR upper conversions only work so - so in my experience. You need the 10-22's in your inventory anyways - Butler Creek mags - if you can find it PMC Zapper copper plated shells generally work well in 10-22's - they are a bit more than Walmart specials at about $15 a 500 round brick but are worth it as the accuracy gain is significent. As you have an extra lower I would get a DPMS upper as they seem to be the best value for the money at this point - Stags and RR's are great but it sounds as if you are on a tight budget and ammo would be a better buy than a more expensive upper.
 
Thanks to all who replied. Here are a few more questions.
What would be good ammo?
I reload. Do you know of a good staring place for the AR-15 with 16" barrel? Powder? Bullets?
Where can I get USGI slings?
Where can I get the narrower front sight?
I would like to get another upper before the shoot. One fellow highly recommend the LMT 16" M4. Could you confirm that it would be a good choice? Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge.
.

mtcur3, for the equipment, try MidwayUSA.com. They will have about everything you are going to need.

As to what to load for those AR's, I suggest trying to duplicate M855 ball ammo. That will get the job done, and can be made cheap enough.

I would also consider getting a few Ruger 10/22's and tarting them up, like the Liberty Training Rifles. There's a wealth of info on them at the Appleseedinfo forum, and they work AWESOME. You could do a bunch of the training with them, and since the rifle, parts to modify it and a couple thousand rounds of decent .22 ammo will cost you LESS than 1 thousand rounds of decent 7.62 NATO or .223 ammo, they actually pay for themselves right off. I've built a few of these, and can answer any questions you may have on them.

The only "single shot" work you are going to be doing is Ball and Dummy drills.
 
I would also consider getting a few Ruger 10/22's and tarting them up, like the Liberty Training Rifles. There's a wealth of info on them at the Appleseedinfo forum, and they work AWESOME. You could do a bunch of the training with them, and since the rifle, parts to modify it and a couple thousand rounds of decent .22 ammo will cost you LESS than 1 thousand rounds of decent 7.62 NATO or .223 ammo, they actually pay for themselves right off.


+1 Nickle, I can't imaging doing the short distance stuff without the .22lr. With the cost of ammo today it is better to practice with the 22 and save the good stuff for when you really need it.
 
4 MOA standing????????. I would say if you picked 1000 shooters or even 10,000 at random from the normal people you see at most ranges, you would find that less than 1% could do it.
Most couldn't do it sitting. A lot couldn't do it in prone. This is based on many years of shooting at various ranges(from the late 1950's) I have seen very few that would even try it. They want benches,sandbags and super duper scopes.

For many years I have worked Sighting-In Days at several ranges and very few shooters could shoot 4 MOA off the bench. Most had problems with FBJ(flinch,blink and jerk.)

I go to the range a lot and any time anyone else is there, I talk about Appleseed and the training it provides. MOST ARE NOT INTERESTED!!!!
Some frown on shooting at 25 M. and look down on it but I put up a target and let the ones who will try it. Changes their out-look right away.:D
 
funfaler, The Guy, Muddogg, 1911Ron, Salty & Nickle

Thank you all very much for the encouraging words and for giving me more specific answers and directions in which to go. I haven't found the USGI web sling yet. It is sold out everywhere I've looked. I have an open order at Midway and am trying to decide what sling to get. Could you recommend one of the ones at Midway?
I have ordered three sets of Tech-Sights to build the 10/22 trainers and three sets for all the suggestions for the Liberty trainers. In addition I've got the narrower front sight post for the AR as suggested by funfaler.
How much ammo should we bring for the .22? How much for the .223? We are doing the Boot Camp and the weekend shoot.
I've got another family with three or four kids who are trying to make arrangements to go with us to the Texarkana BC. Hopefully we can carry the fire back down to South Louisiana afterward.
Sincerely,
mtcur3
 
Web Slings

www.targetsportsinc.com $6.99 ea. NEW
Just got some from them this week. item #TACM14

You can figure about a 1000- 1200 rds. for each person at the Boot Camp and another 400 for the Appleseed to follow.

No way to tell how to decide how many between the .22 LR and the 5.56. It all depends on the person doing the shooting and which rifle they use.

At Boot Camp #1, I shot over a 1000 rds. and didn't shoot everyday(too old,tired, stiff and sore). Didn't shoot any at the Appleseed after Boot Camp.
That was before the ammo problems and before using the .22's as training aids. I shot a M14A for the week.
 
My .02....

I don't get it.....

When I get serious with accuracy/precision shooting,
I try to get EVERYTHING in my favor.
Now, I'm just regular shooter...no ranking, maybe enter 2 or 3
'official' competitions a year. My personal enjoyment and
challenge is beating my last best 'personal record'.
If I shot a sub MOA, well, I gotta practice until I get it smaller.:eek:

Now, I dont have the resources or $ for a $5000 AI rifle.
So, I gotta live within certain limitations.
However, when shooting in a competition, you are MANDATED to
use the absolutely BEST ammo for your rifle!!
Even if it costs nearly a dollar per round, the competition is when
you let it all hang out!!
Find out what works in your rifle for precision shooting
(dont use 3 shot groups!) by practicing and more practicing.
Finally, stock up on that make ammo when its on sale
or when ya got a cuppla extra bucks in your pocket.

I never broke MOA with my ARs until I 'gave in', spent some money,
and got some Black Hills .223 69 g Sierra Matchking HP.
After a couple of boxes of various bullet wts, manuf, I
couldnt believe what the Black hills ammo was printing!!!
How about consistent .6xx to .7xx MOA 10 shot groups over and over!!!

The results will be extremely satisfying - nothings wrong with a little pride now and then!!

Docgary

RRA AR15, 16 " brl, Tact carb, Grippod, Eotech,(sometimes 1.5-5x20 Simmons) light and simple - SHTF gun.
custom AR15 Krieger 26" 1:9 SS, Les Baer upper recr, (no FA) VTAC FF HG -
...................Magpul PRS stock, RRA lower, NM 2 stage trigger
SHTF gun + hunter and sniper
Beretta x 3 - 9 mm Elite II, Inox italian, .22 Neos
Kimber 45 1911 - Gold Match II
Remington 1187 lefty 12g, Condor 12g O/U
 
docary, you are correct in what you are saying but this thread was started about the Appleseed program and learning to shoot a rifle in normal field positions( standing,sitting and prone), no sand bags, no benches and no bipods. Just you and your rifle and ammo.
A rich man could go broke buying Match Ammo to use while learning to shoot himself , much more so if the wife and kids are along.
Once YOU learn to out shoot your rifle or ammo,that is the time to upgrade to the more expensive stuff.
If you attend a RWVA Boot Camp, you will most likely see the better rifles(AR's,M1's & M1A's) but most shooting suplus ammo.
At the regular Appleseed shoots, you will see all kinds of rifles, from WW1 military rifles,lever actions,.22s of all kinds to the lastest semi-auto military rifles. There may even be one or two match rifles but I wouldn't bet on it.
 
Ummmm, yeah,

The key word you used there was competition.

There is none at an Appleseed. Just you and yourself. There are no "top shooter" prizes. The only reward is to hit 210 pts on the AQT (Army Qualification Target), then we give you a Rifleman badge.

What we teach could be used in a competition. Or in hunting, or in a "real life open tactical" situation.

If you can shoot sub MOA, that's cool, we will still teach you things.

If you can't hit the broad side of a barn, we will teach you things, abeit alot more than for someone who can already shoot sub MOA with 10 rounds in 50 seconds going from standing to sitting with a mag swap and a target shift.

This ain't no country club shoot. This is rain (we do stop for lots of lightning) or shine, hot or cold, no benches, no cover (unless we get really lucky, or we are at Ramsuer NC) and no alibis.

It isn't about how good you can shot, not really.

It is about History, and why we can shoot, and why we all should shoot, and about passing it on to Posterity.



The day after 19 April, 1775, John Adams rode along Battle Road, stretching from Concord to Boston, surveying the carnage. He saw the wounded still shuffling in. He saw the dead, being piled on wagons. Some of the dead were burried in hedge rows, for fear fo British reprisals on the bodies, or the survivng families if the dead were identified.

Houses were burned. Others were full of bodies, as if a shot was fire from a house, the British stormed it, killing everyone found with in.

Adams was shocked to his core with what he had witnessed, and he remarked, "If Posterity ever forgets what we have done here, we shall Regret ever having done It."

We are the very Posterity he was talking of.

Are They looking down right now on us, with Regret?

I prefer to think that They see a little Reason for Hope. I prefer to think that They see what the Appleseed program is trying to accomplish.

To bring back the memory of what they did for us. Posterity.

Appleseed stands on four legs.

Shoot
Recruit
Educate
Communicate

Shooting sub MOA is only the first step. In reality, shooting at least 4 moa is really the first step.

Recruting new shooters to the Ranks is next, because with out new shooters, the tradition of self relianceand self defense will be all but gone in a generation.

Our Posterity. What comes after us.



It isn't what you want, it is about what you want to leave behind.















The Looking To The Future Guy
 
Great post TG. That really sums up the overall mission of the Appleseed program.I wish I could have stated it so eliquently.

mtcur3

I only hope you can bring the fire south into LA. We are trying to find locations there to bring the tour. Can you stand on the line, and find that elusive spot? If you have one let one of us know( funfaler, The Guy, Pacer, Nickle, ken grant or myself ). We will make sure you get the info you need to get the ball rolling there. Hope you have a wonderful time at BC and pass the tradition on...
 
I will say this, if anyone can shoot sub-MOA or even MOA or 2MOA from normal field positions(standing,sitting or prone) I WANT THEM ON MY SIDE:D
 
Almost any AR-15 upper from an A-list manufacturer will be able to hold 4MOA if the ammo can. Keep in mind, that 4MOA group adds to your natural wobble area as well as the environmental conditions. If you want to learn, it helps to have good equipment.

If you want to shoot out to 500 yards, and you're not competing in something that mandates iron sights, think about getting a scope. No reason to make things any harder than you have to.

Something to consider: I reload Hornady 75grn. BTHP match loads for under 20 cents per round. That's less than what Wolf goes for. The couple-hundred-dollar initial investment in a cheap single-stage press and dies looks better all the time. :D

- Chris
 
We've probably got a place

We are members of a very nice range with 500 plus member families. It has a huge 300 yard rifle range set up for bench rest. I believe they have 30 concrete shooting benches with a lot of room between them. As well as several 30 yard pistol bays. We shoot rimfire rifle with the kids in the pistol bays. Check it out at http://www.southernshootingcenter.com/
I've been teaching classes since it began with the specific goal of reaching non-shooters. I've done many kids classes and the owners have always been very supportive of my efforts esp. where the kids are concerned.
mtcur3
 
I just wanted to say thanks also for all the great info from all who have replied to my good friend's post. My family and I (wife and 5 1/2 children) will be travelling from south Louisiana to the Appleseed event with mtcur3's family. I will be bringing some .22 bolt actions and 1 Colt 6700 and 1 S/S Springfield Loaded M1A. If you guys feel a Norinco SKS is OK, I may bring that for one of my kiddos.
So far, it promises to be an exciting time to visit and fellowship with lots of like minded people at the Appleseed Boot Camp. WILDMAN
 
The SKS is a fine rifle and would work well at an Appleseed, there is usually a couple at each shoot.

I have asked for help on the ammo requirements for the Boot Camps, as I am not sure, don't want to mess it up.

Those that hold a higher knowledge, should be posting the info here soon, thanks for all the interest.
 
Ammo

If I were planning on attending a Boot Camp and the Appleseed Shoot afterwards, I would want to have at least 1500-1600 rds. of ammo total( better to have extra than to run out) for each person if they are going to shoot everyday.
That is an average of 150-160 rds. each day for 10 days and some days you will most likely shoot more than the average.
With the costs and hard to find surplus ammo,.22 LR should be the larger part of what you shoot for most of the Boot Camp.
Once you can shoot Rifleman Scores on demand with your .22, then you can start on the centerfires to learn to do the same.
The mechanics of firing the shot are the same,no matter what rifle you chose to use. The only thing different with the centerfires is the noise and recoil.
With adjustable sights or a scope on your .22, you could shoot out to 300 yds and be effective with it.
Shooting at the longer ranges with a .22 will also help teach you to read the wind and hold-offs(if you don't have sights that you can adjust with ease)

P.S. , Just found out I might have stated too high on ammo needs.
The Head Honco(FRED) said " a couple of bricks of .22(1000 rds.) and about 200 centerfire. I don't know if he meant just for Boot Camp or for both B.C. and the Appleseed to follow.
 
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