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Why don't they fight back?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by manwithoutahome, May 11, 2004.

  1. In relation to the American hostages in Iraq.

    Most Americans and others know that they will be killed, and they allow the insurgents (insurgents may very well be outsiders coming in to "fight") to make them parade in front of a camera and then allow them to cut their heads off?

    Unless the hostage was doped up or something, I would be on tape kicking, screaming, biting, etc..

    Let them release the tape showing that at least one American fought before they shot him (or her).

    Lunge for an AK or something, just don't sit there.

    Oh course, I'm not in that situation, and I don't know the whole story, but I would think that they would at least put up a fight knowing full well they are going to be tortured (true torture, not humiliated) and murdered.

  2. GTKrockeTT

    GTKrockeTT Well-Known Member

    most hostages have not been killed, and sitting on this side of the fence without knowing firsthand exactly what their experience/nightmare is, makes it difficult for us to judge or question the hostages' actions.

    case in point, had the truck driver that had escaped, fought, he may not have had the opportunity to ever talk/see his wife again.
  3. Swamprabbit

    Swamprabbit Well-Known Member

    I really don't know. I've thought about this some myself and wondered what has happened, prior to the filming, to make the victim so docile.

    Of course no-one really knows how he/she would react in that scenario but I would like to think that I would be able to carry a secret homing device for a cruise missle or something. I just would hate to go away and leave those happy fellas, that killed me, behind. I would really want to share some BBQ with them in the afterlife.:fire:
  4. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Well-Known Member

    My sense is that the vast majority of these kidnappings are taken care of quietly and with no bloodshed. Most of the kidnappers want $$, whatever their political claims are. So I suspect contractors have been told to simply keep quiet and wait for arrangements to be made.

    OTOH, there have been plenty of extrajudicial killings by private citizens and their guards. So I suspect many have indeed fought off attempted kidnappings. I suspect the temptation to kill any Iraqi who got too close would be very strong.
  5. ID_shooting

    ID_shooting Well-Known Member

    Cant say what the cilvilian training is, but my POW training was two sided.

    1. Obey, they will follow the rules and you will survive. That is the official doctrine.

    2. Resist, fight, kill, take as many of the f***ers out with you as you can. Instruction from one of my old Vietnam patch wearing 1SGs

    In the line units I was in, we figured long ago that none of us would ever be prisoners. They may drag my dead body around the streets, but only after they found the grenade in my hands.
  6. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Well-Known Member

    Most hostages believe they have a chance to survive if they keep their head down and their mouth shut ... this has been born out over the years (in general its a rare occasion when hostages are killed).

    If you think they are going to release the video of you fighting and then being killed guess again. That tape will be recorded over with the next captive of a compliant nature (remember, they say Americans are weak and cowardly ... prove them wrong and your death will be for nothing).
  7. Ktulu

    Ktulu Well-Known Member

    That's a tough question with no easy answer.

    GT has a point but I think that's exactly the attitude that gets your head chopped off. You want to see your family and friends again, you want to make love to your wife again, and you want to watch your children grow up and have children of their own. So, you bide you time until an opportunity arises that you can exploit. If you get lucky, great, if you don’t you get used by evil men to further their evil cause. In reality, every incident like this makes it more and more unlikely that you will survive let alone have a chance to escape.

    My mind is made up...I will not allow myself to be captured. I will let no one unjustly take/detain me against my will. It might save my life or it might get me killed but I will not be taken advantage of by those people. Of course this is very easy for me to say sitting at my computer, relatively, safe in beautiful Michigan.

    I assume this guy was unarmed and taken completely unaware.
  8. Shovelhead

    Shovelhead Well-Known Member

    It might be the same as the passangers on the first two aircraft that hit the WTC & the one that hit the Pentagon.
    Probably thought "Go along for the ride, waste a few hours and nobody gets hurt" same as most previous incidents.

    After the first 3 were flown into buildings, the passengers on the fouth airliner headed for DC found out that this was NOT a routine hijacking, and decided to "resist".

    The Rules Have Changed.
    There Are No Rules.
  9. Bog

    Bog Well-Known Member

    Mm. I have to go along with this. One of the overwhelming things I see in this conflict is that Our Side, as a rule, has an overwhelming regard for human life. The Other Side(s) do not. They see no distinction between a soldier and a noncombatant, and half the time don't even see anything wrong in killing 10 of their own to get 1 of ours.

    Which, of course, puts Our Side at a massive disadvantage. Zundfolge's comment about one's performance being taped over by the next compliant victim has the ring of horrible truth about it, as well. Next time I watch video of something like this, I'll be looking at the tape quality to try to guess how many times the tape has been used. This whole thing has got me grinding my teeth pretty much constantly, might as well lose a bit more enamel while I'm at it :(

    With regards to this conflict as a whole, I think that our love of life is possibly our greatest "weakness" as far as They are concerned. If I found myself in a hostage situation like this, though? I guess I'd probably be figuring on getting killed in the end anyway, even if I play along. So the Devil take it - might as well go down while I'm spitting out someone else's ear.

    Or at least, that how I hope I'd react. I'd really rather not find out.
  10. pittspilot

    pittspilot Well-Known Member

    I believe that Italian showed some spine before he was shot.

    I think it is such a tough call to decide when to go from being compliant to fighting your heart out that I would not be hard on someone who apparently did not fight.

    For instance we have no idea if the killers had pulled off this scene on a couple of previous occassions. If they had enacted this a few times, then the hostage may have thought that this was not going to happen. Or the killers may have told him that it was just an act. It is afterall tough to come to grips with the idea that you are about to get your head cut off.
  11. Autolite

    Autolite Well-Known Member

    I think it's a combination of the previously mentioned reasons. Remain passive and you'll survive, our will to live, etc. But I think that pittspilot hit the nail on the head. I believe that most people, being human, simply cannot grasp the reality of what is happening in such a dire situation. The same question, "why don't they fight", has been asked with reference to the Jews of Nazi Germany ...
  12. Ktulu

    Ktulu Well-Known Member

    No! The rules have not changed. They have always been the same. Give in and you hand your life over to your captors. It's up to them if you live or die and how you live or die. Choose to fight and you're the master of your life whether you loose it or not.
  13. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

    I'm sure they told him whatever they had to tell him in order to get compliance. That may have been threats, but it may also have been "Look, you identify yourself, we threaten a lot, and when they give us a concession, we let you go. We've done this before, you have to trust us."
  14. pittspilot

    pittspilot Well-Known Member

    I determined to watch the video.

    They had him tied up, so he could not have fought that well in any event. Even knowing it is coming, it is hard to take that level of barbarity. People normally are not used to it, and are almost never ready for it.
  15. LynnMassGuy

    LynnMassGuy Well-Known Member

    Maybe for the sake of other hostages in captivity.
  16. Bigjake

    Bigjake Well-Known Member

    swamp rabbit called it with the homming beacon thinger-

    "We may not all end up at the same place but we'll start together!"

    quote from the alamo (the good john wayne version where davy crockett actualy had a pair!:fire: )
  17. lwaldron

    lwaldron Well-Known Member

    I saw the video

    Here at the news station, I saw the video. I watched it a few times, slowed it down, watched a few more times, listened to those savages yelling "Allahu Akhbar" to drown out Berg's screams.
    It sickened me, and filled me with killing rage.
    This, I guarantee you, will provoke no outrage amongst the rags. You won't hear any of the rags apologizing for this. They're all dancing with joy.
    Sometimes I'm ashamed to be an American. I know we'll do absolutely nothing about this. None of the savages in this video will ever suffer any consequences for doing this.
    I wish I could vote for someone who would say, "Yes, this is a war. And I will fight it like one."
  18. nemesis

    nemesis Well-Known Member

    I will not walk quietly to the gas chambers. If I am a hostage, I am already dead. I will not hope for compassion from my captors. I will choose the time of my death, not them. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
  19. one45auto

    one45auto Well-Known Member

    That is why if I were to accept a civilian contracting position in Iraq I'd demand that I be allowed to carry whatever weapons I felt necessary, and if they wouldn't let me carry then I'd turn down the job no matter how much it paid. I'd have a rifle, a primary, and a BUG, not to mention a good razor-sharp (thank you, John Juranitch!) boot knife strapped to each calf.

    Now I'm no Rambo by any stretch of the imagination, nor do I have any delusions about being a bad @ss, but you can bet your bottom dollar that unless I was severely incapacitated by the first shot they wouldn't be taking me without a fight. I might die in the attempt, but I'd be doing everything in my power to take a few of the b@st@rds with me.
  20. joab

    joab Well-Known Member

    These guys are masters at manipulation they will either break your will or in Pearl's case befriend you laughing and joking with you until they come from behind to kill you.
    I have just watched the video of Nick Berg, watching closly he seems to be nervous but not really afraid. His shriek were more than from terror, they seem to me to be from total surprise. I believe he felt that he was not in any real imminent danger.
    Perhaps they told him to cooperate with their little propaganda film and all would be well, or perhaps they acted out his execution so many times that he was getting bored with it.

    Either way these animals should die slow and soon
    I have no respect for Fox or any other media that released this tape. This was private last moments that we have no right to view. And his family had every right not to see but now will have this image burned into their memory for the rest of their lives

    .I want MY America back and this just ain't it.

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