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Why no P232 in 9mm

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by SIGfiend, Nov 10, 2005.

  1. SIGfiend

    SIGfiend Well-Known Member

    I like this gun but wish it were made in the more mainstream 9mm variant...no not the kurz/.380!

    Why haven't SIG done this?
  2. cookekdjr

    cookekdjr Well-Known Member

    It's a blow-back design that does not work with the more powerful 9mm Luger cartridge. Generally speaking, 9mm Makarov is the most powerful cartridge you can get from this design, although a small number of blow-back pistols have successfully harnessed the 9mm.
  3. Trebor

    Trebor Well-Known Member

    The few blowback guns that do shoot 9x19mm have extremely stout recoil springs and are much larger than the Sig 232. Check out the Astra 600 sometime. I think the High Point might be blowback as well.

    There's a limit to how small the gun can be and still shoot 9x19mm. I think the Roughborgh P9 or the Kahr PM9 are about as small as you can go. They are both locked breech pistols.
  4. Devonai

    Devonai Well-Known Member

    May I direct you to the excellent Sig P239? I believe it answers your question quite succinctly.
  5. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member

    'Cuz it would feel like a Hi-Point.

    Something about locked breach vs blow back.

    +1 on the 239 - I have one in .357 and it's great fun.
  6. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Well-Known Member

    A 9x19 blowback pistol like a P232 or PPK or even a Makarov would hurt like hell to shoot ... might as well get a S&W 329PD and shoot it will full house loads.

    Baikal experimented with a 9x19 Makarov not to long ago ... it was brutal and dangerous to shoot (at least according to the guys at the Baikal factory) ... a Mak is a bit heaver then a P232 and very solidly built so I doubt the little SIG would work.

    If you want a 9x19 that small, get a Rohrbaugh or Kahr.

    A Kahr MK9 is smaller.

    MK9 - 9x19
    Length 5.3"
    Height 4.0"
    Width .90"
    Weight Empty 22.1 oz

    SIG P232 - 9x17 (aka .380acp)
    Length 6.6"
    Height 4.7"
    Width 1.2"
    Weight Empty 16.2 oz
  7. wardog

    wardog Well-Known Member

    I want a 9mm 232 as well. I know they'd have to change the design though.

    But hey, if Kahr and Rohrbaugh can make a mini 9, why can't SIG (or HK) ?

    The 232 would be the perfect size for a mini 9 IMHO.

    (I don't consider the 239 a mini 9)
  8. Shipwreck

    Shipwreck Well-Known Member

    I agree. They could still keep the same shape and size, and just change the mechanics...
  9. otomik

    otomik Well-Known Member

    I like blowback guns with the spring around the barrel. they're very ergonomic and have a low barrel axis.

    be nice to the engineers now, explain to me how you're going to do that, the p232, PPK and Bersa .380 profile is dependent on a spring around the barrel and there's really no room for the barrel to tilt anyway.

    also it was my understanding that the Makarov in 9mm Para had a grooved chamber (similar to H&K) which is one method of delaying blowback.

    if you're going to do this I'd try using this russian pistol's operating system while incorporating a grooved chamber and just try to miniturized it until it looks something like a Bersa, PPK, P232.
  10. pauli

    pauli Well-Known Member

    who needs it to tilt, when it can rotate?
  11. otomik

    otomik Well-Known Member

    fantastic, now what do to with the recoil spring? certainly can't wrap with around the barrel if it's rotating. again i think your best chance is here:
  12. pauli

    pauli Well-Known Member

    it can go around the barrel as long as it's short enough.
  13. otomik

    otomik Well-Known Member

    I'd love to see it done but my fear is that it will damage the spring. I'm looking at my Bersa, one side grips the barrel toward the chamber the other side pushes against the muzzle area of the slide. that friction is going to cause problems with the recoil spring. might want to add a ring that attaches to the end of the spring toward the muzzle and oil the ring and muzzle contact surface to reduce friction, it's an idea. rotating barrel guns need a lot of oil, thats just another area to worry about.

    SIG Beretta Walther Bersa somebody try this.
  14. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Well-Known Member

    Maybe a gas-retarded blowback system like the Steyr GB?
  15. pauli

    pauli Well-Known Member

    friction isn't an issue with captive recoil springs; thus, simply make a captive recoil spring assembly large enough to fit around the barrel.

    at the same time... i'm not so sure you couldn't put a recoil spring around a tilting barrel. the lugs would be the issue, not the tilting, and they could, perhaps, be moved.
  16. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Well-Known Member

    The HK P7 is a fixed barrel gun, gas retarded blowback......

    Id love to see a Makarov/Sig 232 9mm.............I just like the lines of the guns.

    Its very possible to make.....but is there enough market to make the gun worth building???????????

    Shoot well.
  17. otomik

    otomik Well-Known Member

    i know it's possible to have a recoil spring around a barrel even if it tilts, thats why i kept linking the russian pistol :)
    see how it's profile is somewhat like the makarov?
    a captive recoil spring around the barrel would be very convienent, I've never seen this on a gun, it might make the slide too wide, who knows.

    is it possible to make? show me the blueprints, that's what we're trying to figure out here. I think there's a market everybody has thought to themselves, gee that james bond pistol is pretty nice lookin, too bad it's in a pussy caliber (true, some would say the same about 9mm).

    in the gas retarded blowback system you have some gases from near the chamber go down another chamber, which pushes on the front of the slide and delays it's opening till the bullet has left the barrel. in a p7 this gas chamber occupies the position where the guide rod would be on a more conventional pistol, people sometimes call it the gas piston, a company made a similar product for 1911s which turned them into gas operated pistols and replaced the guide rod. the Steyr GB is a bit more exotic, look at the front of the barrel, that's where they put the gas chamber, I don't have one but I'd imagine that makes it even harder to clean than the P7. the Steyr GB has a recoil spring under it's barrel, I guess you could try to put in on the barrel between the gas chamber and the cartridge chamber but I have some doubts. Some people complained about the GBs balance, I can see how the gas chamber near the muzzle would make it top heavy.
  18. carebear

    carebear Well-Known Member

    Now I'm moving further afield but how bout a Colt Mustang (or Gov't) in 9mm? As small or smaller than the Rohrbaugh.

    Tilting barrel/semi-blowback, dual recoil springs. You could leave it alloy and just beef up the frame a bit.

    How bout it science?
  19. otomik

    otomik Well-Known Member

    more like how about it legal eagle? colt already made it, it's the colt pocket nine and they got sued by kahr for making it. all they'd have to do is revisit the design enough to satisfy kahr's lawyers. I think it's all about the offset barrel lug, serves them right considering how litigious Colt has been.

  20. carebear

    carebear Well-Known Member

    I completely forgot about the Pocket Nine. :banghead:

    I wasn't too hip on it at the time for some reason. Wasn't it DAO?

    Cause DAO is for circus freaks and carnies, those kind of people. :D

    I want SA and alloy frame.

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