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Why so much disdain for the .25 acp?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Guvnor, Dec 10, 2012.

  1. otasan56

    otasan56 Well-Known Member

    I have no doubt

    that the .25 ACP can kill. It is just that the target zone is so small with the .25. I can hit a felon in the liver with my Glock 17 9mm +p+ JHP, and it will drop the felon far faster than a similar hit with a .25. To drop someone with a .25 ACP, one has to hit an opponent right in the open mouth or nose - small targets for any pistol.
  2. fastbolt

    fastbolt Well-Known Member

    Having watched a fair number of diminutive .22's, .25's, .32's & .380's come through courses-of-fire over the years that I've worked as a firearms instructor, I've seen significantly more feeding stoppages and general functioning problems exhibited by the .22's & .25's than the larger .32's & .380's.

    The .22's do seem to have the added issues to consider of ammunition quality, consistent ignition, bullet seating, etc.

    So then, what exactly are you considering the relative "worth" of the cartridge to be, if it's not an "effective stopper" or a "good defense" round?

    BTW, when I was a much younger cop I bought one of those budget "European .25's" through one of the guys who had a FFL. It was more of a novalty purchase being made by several guys, due to the really low cost. (A few of us also bought some early Jennings .22's for the same reason. :eek:)

    I came across it in the bottom of my gun safe a while back. As I recall, I lost interest in it after it started to exhibit fairly frequent feeding & ejection problems after being fired for a little over 100 rounds.

    I can see someone having an interest in a very nicely made .25, like the Seecamp LWS .25 pistol. I know another instructor who owns a couple Seecamp pistols. After having shot his, I'd never want to own them. He liked them for their ease of pocket carry, especially the .32 model, and liked to "match" it to his Rolex :scrutiny:... but whenever he thought he might actually need a smaller, pocketable off-duty weapon, he pocketed a S&W 5-shot J-frame.

    I don't pretend to have an answer to your implied question, but it does sort of sound like you did indeed answer your own question regarding the quoted comment. ;)
  3. pikid89

    pikid89 Well-Known Member

    otasan56, unless you have xray vision, I dont think shooting for the liver will do you much good. When it comes to gut shots any large diameter bullet will do more damage...obviously a +P+ 9mm will do more damage to someone than a .25, no matter where you hit him...i think that goes without saying

    Recommending a .40 for someone who is totally inexperienced with guns shows that you dont really understand what its like to teach a complete novice how to shoot...

    a .25 does not NEED to hit in an open mouth to kill, tests show that the .25 will penetrate 15 inches in gel...so i think at fighting distance, quality .25 ammo in a quality gun shouldnt have much trouble going through rib bones or whatever

    SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE Well-Known Member

    If your wife is that sensitive to recoil , I think you made an excellent choice with the 8 shot LCR in .22 lr . One advantage a .25 has over 22 lr is a more reliable ignition system . In an auto a misfire has to be cleared , with your revolver, she can just pull the trigger again ! Bring her along at her own pace and hopefully she will move up to a larger caliber , but until then keep premium .22 lr ammo in her little Ruger ! I prefer the CCI mini mags ! Kevin
  5. Bohemus

    Bohemus Well-Known Member

    While I prefer my 9mm Luger Kahr P9, I would rather have CZ92 with 8x 6,35mm Browning than bare hands.
    6,35 can be spot stopper if you hit important place.
    If your wife wants to carry .25ACP pistol its much better than being anti-gun. She may get used to and get bigger pistol in future, but until then she will be better off with .25ACP.
  6. leadchucker

    leadchucker Well-Known Member

    You're going to have to learn not to be so sensitive, especially to a little tongue-in-cheek humor. You take yourself too seriously. The fact that a .25 can kill is obvious, and no indignant explanation from you is required.

    As to the LCP/380 suggestion, it still stands. A 380 round will be considerably more effective than a .25 round. And its recoil is still quite mild compared to anything bigger or more powerful
  7. otasan56

    otasan56 Well-Known Member

    The cartridges ability to kill is not what matters here. It is the ability to drop an opponent and cease his homicidal functions immediately. Believe me I wont be aiming for the liver with my G17 9mmP. I'll be hitting the homicidal gunman in the forehead, nose, or open mouth. I won't be aiming for the heart - felons can still shoot and kill with a damaged heart.
  8. Guvnor

    Guvnor Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately this topic has turned into a bit of a pissing match...which is not what I intended. I was just looking to have a discussion on the .25 and how and why it got such a bad rep and why its always the butt of bad jokes. its a cartridge with a rich history over the past century. I obviously do not advocate the .25 (or a .22 for that matter) as a primary home defense gun, unless that's all you had or could handle.

    *Mods, my apologies for opening a can of worms.*
  9. otasan56

    otasan56 Well-Known Member

    It doesn't look like a pissing match to me.

    Just a friendly exchange of ideas about a controversial cartridge. Some people must be informed about the capabilities of this old cartridge. :D
  10. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Well-Known Member

    I have no disdain for it, but for self defense, why handicap yourself when so many other options are available? Not that the .25 doesn't have a niche. I could see a little Beretta 950, Colt vest pocket or Baby Browning as a BUG, for example. Or, for that matter, just plain fun.
  11. JR47

    JR47 Well-Known Member

    I do NOT intend to DROP anyone with a handgun. I intend to make them stop attempting to harm me. Anyone throwing out such trash-talk is asking to be prosecuted.

    The .25 ACP was never intended to be a service round. It's funny how, after nearly a century of protecting citizens, today we seem to think that it's ineffective.

    In many cases, according to experts, the simple production of a gun into a scenario will stop aggressive action. Then, MOST crooks won't hang around to trade fire with anyone. If injured, they need medical attention, and hospitals are required by law to report them.

    Note that, in the Armed Citizen columns of the NRA publications, there are many stories of people, armed with "less than effective", who somehow manage to run off, or kill, people attempting to harm them.

    If the horror stories, or smug statements actually held any truth, one would never read about a .22 pistol, or a .25 ACP pistol, successfully defending a citizen.

    Instead of insisting that the person describing his wife's abilities ignore her complaints and wishes, and buy "X" or "Y", perhaps we should try to work with what is presented. A .25 ACP Beretta is hardly a "junk gun". Perhaps she could be talked into a 3032 Tomcat, instead. The .32 ACP is capable of stopping people during war-time, on a battlefield. While it, once again, just doesn't seem to fit into chairborn commando's opinion of "good enough", that is hardly important.

    If recoil is an issue, try having her hold, then shoot, a Colt Mustang, or the Sig P238. Both of these are locked-breech guns, and metal framed. They mitigate recoil nicely. They are also small enough for a less than strong set of wrists to handle.

    The idea that 9x19 is the minimum "effective round" is nice, but really simplistic. If the shooter cannot handle the gun's recoil, size, and weight, they will not be accurate. Accuracy, not caliber, controls who walks away, and who is "dropped".:)
  12. otasan56

    otasan56 Well-Known Member

    BUG? It is more of a LDG (latch ditch gun). I'd have two or more serious handguns ahead of it.
  13. jimbo555

    jimbo555 Well-Known Member

    Guvnor,when your Grandfather carried his 25 as a backup they didn't have a keltec p3at or a ruger lcp or he would have chosen one of them. 380's and even 32's were much larger and heavier in those days,and it made the 25's a more viable pocket choice. Not so today!
  14. pikid89

    pikid89 Well-Known Member

    Otasan, im not sure why you seem to think a .25 in not a "serious" gun...any gun that throws a hunk of lead fast enough to penetrate bodily tissue is a "serious" gun...if the lady wants to carry a .25, then she should carry a .25...the .25 is a deadly bullet, as proven by lots of dead badguys over the years

    I agree that there are lots more "better" rounds out there, but the .25 is nothing to try and admonish someone for carrying. Plenty of people carry .22s and dont catch the flak that .25s get.

    "gimme your money....oh crap a gun!!, oh wait thats a .25...gimme your money"
    -----No Bad Guy EVER
  15. Tcruse

    Tcruse Well-Known Member

    I am not so sure that the .22LR might not be a better choice. The following is from one study that has been published:

    # of people shot - 68
    # of hits - 150
    % of hits that were fatal - 25%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 35%
    One-shot-stop % - 30%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49%

    .22 (short, long and long rifle)

    # of people shot - 154
    # of hits - 213
    % of hits that were fatal - 34%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
    One-shot-stop % - 31%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

    Looks like a good .22LR with one of the high velocity hp bullets might be a better choice.
  16. Fotno

    Fotno Well-Known Member

    I think what many of the responders are trying to say, is that while a .25 auto may be one of the least imposing of the weapon choices out there, it's not necessarily the lightest recoiling; and it's certainly had a questionable history as a defensive round.

    Recoil Sensitivity: There are really two basic types of recoil sensitivity, physical and psychological. If your wife is physically sensitive to recoil - in that it's painful to her - there may be nothing anyone can do to help. Because of certain physical limitations, some folks simply don't have the ability to shoot a firearm. If it's a psychological sensitivity, training and exposure to more different types of firearms and shooting can make all the difference.

    Recoil itself: A smaller handgun chambered in a lighter caliber does not necessarily equal less felt recoil. Some of the stiffest recoiling handguns out there, are harsher by virtue of their lightness. A steel framed revolver will produce less felt recoil than a alloyed framed gun in the same caliber. Sometimes a slighter larger, heavier gun is the easiest to shoot well. When my wife wanted to learn to shoot, we started with a pellet rifle, moved to a .22 caliber handgun, and then a .38 revolver. She now has her own Glock 19 - her choice - and she is very proficient with it.

    Good luck in your search.
  17. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Well-Known Member

    Wow! Is G-lock the only pistol that is capable of firing 9mm+P+ ammo? :banghead:

    For every story of a .25 failing to stop a threat there is a counter-story where it does. An Attorney friend of mine recently and successfully argued a case of two drug dealers shooting it out. Bad Guy #1 pulled a G-lock 9mm on BG #2, fired and missed, whereupon BG #2 grabbed his Lorcin .25 and shot BG #1 in the heart. BG #1 dropped his G-lock, stumbled back clutching his chest, and exanguinated. Lorcin 1, G-lock 0. :what:
  18. Kiln

    Kiln Well-Known Member

    What is annoying is that when somebody comes online for information about the .25acp they see all that "humor" (it is also misinformation) about how the .25acp will bounce off of the average human being without injuring him and then they go around repeating it everywhere afterwards.

    Without fail somebody makes that stupid comment at some point in a .25acp thread every time and it just isn't true.

    At one point in time the Raven MP25 was one of the most used guns for murder in the country. That tells me that the little .25acp, while not ideal, does what it is supposed to do.
  19. leadchucker

    leadchucker Well-Known Member

    Okay, no further jokes about the .25 from me, just information. Any firearm is potentially lethal. We all know that, or at least we should.

    What may be more pertinent here is the round's ability to end a potential threat in a self defense situation. If you can be sure you can keep a cool head and place your shot accurately, you can likely end the threat with a .25. That said, you can also just as likely end the threat with a .22. If you're really good, you might even be able to do it with a fair sized rock.

    However, if you're like the vast majority of us, you just might not be able to center the shot on a vital spot, especially in a high stress situation. In that case, yes, the attacker may well die - in a few hours or days, but in the meantime, he is still likely to be quite able to do you harm.

    A larger, more powerful round is going to be a bit more forgiving of an imperfectly placed shot, and as has been mentioned, likely has some additional added shock effect.
  20. Kiln

    Kiln Well-Known Member

    I agree with all that you said and wasn't debating that larger calibers aren't better. I was just saying that I could live without seeing "if I got shot with a .25 and found out about it" jokes and so could the whole wide interwebs.

    I wasn't directing my comment specifically at anyone, just a generalization so don't feel like I'm attacking you.

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