Why so much disdain for the .25 acp?

[JR47]

I believe in stopping power, absolutely.
Anyone who has ever hunted or has been in combat and has a rudimentary understanding of physics will be a believer in stopping power.

Done both, and have more than a working knowledge in physics.

Stopping power is a myth. Evan Marshall, who's books defined the term, states plainly that "stopping power is a myth". Page 3, Handgun Stopping Power, 1992.

There are too many people alive today, who were shot with things like a 30mm round, or an RPG, to believe that ANY rifle or pistol round is a guaranteed "stopper".

There are some rounds that can stop an attack, but only if placed precisely, and in a large enough number. If a .22 Long Rifle round can stop a person, then anything larger, in the same place, will do the same thing.

Hopefully no one thinks that a little bullet is more likely to down an opponent then a big one. That's a non-issue, and those that bring it up are missing the point.

Actually, it's the opposite. Apparently there are those to whom a bullet smaller than a given, to them, size is seemingly unable to to down an opponent . That is a non-issue, and those that bring it up are missing the point.

Current .25 ACP bullets are the product of 1900's technology, with a very few exceptions. The manufacturers are happy to sell a number of rounds per year. They haven't determined a need to invest money in improving the caliber. The same technology that has given us the improved .380 ACP ammunition could easily be applied to the round. Powders are today available that would increase performance markedly, while maintaining pressures at a safe limit. Look at the Superformance rounds, or Cor-Bon's pistol ammo.

Then again, the current ammunition does seem to kill quite handily. Despite the apparent physics issue. Then again, until recently, physics proved that a Bumblebee couldn't fly. Nobody bothered to tell the bees, apparently.

The size of a projectile matters little, as long as it hits the appropriate target, and penetrates it. Look at the .22 Long Rifle. As most CCW incidents take place at less than seven feet, in near-darkness, distance is also a meaningless factor. Unless one was asleep, most actions play out up close, with 50' engagements virtually the sole province of the LEO.

It's amusing to listen to the pontifications of those who pronounce their knowledge as the ultimate arbiter. They are uniformly wrong.

Will a .25 ACP kill? Of course it will. Nobody is dumb enough to deny that. Is it the optimal self-defense weapon? Nope, and I haven't seen a single person claiming that. However, the gun that you have certainly beats the "better gun" that's at home.

Not too long ago, a Police Officer felt adequately armed with a six-shot .38 Special revolver, loaded with round-nosed 158-200 gr. bullets. Before than, they felt safe carrying .32 S&W revolvers. Many Armies issued the .32 ACP cartridge for battlefield use, as well.

Today, we poo-poo these cartridges as worse than nothing. Oddly, there are literally millions of dead people whom this wasn't true for. Perhaps we should understand that humans aren't particularly hard to kill, or stop, sometimes. Other times, they are literally bullet sponges, of everything man-portable. There doesn't seem to be a linear relationship to this, either. It's like a switch thrown at the first impact. Before the switch, a .22 long rifle will have them on the ground. After that switch is turned, though, they are the Amazing Hulk.

Carry what you feel comfortable with. It will work for the majority of the time, despite the warnings of the pundits. Fo the Hulks, nothing that you have will work, so why worry?

Accuracy trumps technology, and has for thousands of years. That is provided by the shooter.

 

[Old Fuff]

Anyone who has read my previous posts on this forum know that I am a strong advocate of bullet placement, and it is ultimately placement that makes the difference when stopping an attack.

That said, a bigger-in-diameter bullet will make a larger channel, be more destructive to the tissue and organs it impacts, and often result in greater bleeding.

But the bigger cartridge usually requires a bigger gun, and given the circumstances carrying one may not be practical.

If, for whatever reason, one is relagated to carrying somthing smaller, then the key to success is marksmanship and bullet placement, and while such placement may be difficult, when it happens the diameter of the bullet becomes a more-or-less moot point.

There are better defensive handguns and cartridges then a .25 vest pocket pistol, but when one, for their own reasons or situations decide to carry one they are much better off then having nothing.

 

[otasan56]

Wow! Is G-lock the only pistol that is capable of firing 9mm+P+ ammo? :banghead:

For every story of a .25 failing to stop a threat there is a counter-story where it does. An Attorney friend of mine recently and successfully argued a case of two drug dealers shooting it out. Bad Guy #1 pulled a G-lock 9mm on BG #2, fired and missed, whereupon BG #2 grabbed his Lorcin .25 and shot BG #1 in the heart. BG #1 dropped his G-lock, stumbled back clutching his chest, and exanguinated. Lorcin 1, G-lock 0.

No, many other 9x19 handguns can handle +p+ cartridges. I just prefer my G17.

 

[otasan56]

123

 

[otasan56]

These guns are not any more user friendly for people with small hands than their full sized brethren. The circumference of the grip on the Glock 26 for example is the same as the full sized Glock 17, the only difference is that it's shorter. As some others have said, a single-stack gun is much more likely to fit small hands than a stubby double stack.

Thanks, I forgot that the G26/27 grip is just as wide a the G17/19.

 

[Tcruse]

Also the 17L and 34/35 have same grip size and 26/27. The 17 is easier to shoot well than the 26 or 19 by many.
In my case, several experienced gun people, advise that I would find the CZ 75B as best for my short finger/fat hands. After trying several, I found that the guns that people thought would be all wrong turned out to be the best, namely Barretta 92, Ruger P95, and Glocks. As you shoot more guns and gain experience, expect your preferences to change.

 

[mljdeckard]

Myunit in Afghanistan called in an air strike on some bad guys. They got hosed by an A-10. They captured a straggler in the village STILL UPRIGHT AND TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH A 30MM HOLE THROUGH HIS RIGHT SHOULDER. There are no guarantees.

 

[otasan56]

Myunit in Afghanistan called in an air strike on some bad guys. They got hosed by an A-10. They captured a straggler in the village STILL UPRIGHT AND TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH A 30MM HOLE THROUGH HIS RIGHT SHOULDER. There are no guarantees.

Still running around with a 30mm hole through the shoulder? It must have not been a hollow point (!).

 

[David E]

Actually, a bullet smaller than 1/2 inch in diameter and no less than 1/2 the weight of the larger bullet driven to a velocity capable of expanding the bullet to 1/2 inch in diameter once it strikes and is capable of penetrating to a depth similar to or exceeding that of an already larger bullet will perform as well or even exceed to capability of the larger bullet.

Please cite the research that supports this assertion.

 

[JR47]

Ruger, HK, and Sig also rate their handguns for +P+. The +P+ ammunition will not make the pistol KaBoom, you have to buy a Glock 22 for that. It will, however, cause accelerated wear on the parts. Big difference.

NO .25 ACP will cause accelerated wear on the gun.

I'm NOT a fan of the .25 ACP as a primary gun. I agree with Old Fluff about bigger holes. What I am about is the continuation of hyperbolic nonsense regarding the .25 ACP. To listen to some of these unsupported claims, being shot with a .25 Pistol should make you feel BETTER. Although, after exsanguination, you probably won't feel worse, ever again.

 

[JERRY]

A .single 22lr round from a mini revolver (ballistic match or less than a standard .25acp) killed trooper coats (schp) after he fired 6 duty rounds from his dept. Issued revolver.

Trooper's rounds hit fat man in gut and he lived, physically fit trooper was hit in arm pit and out if commision within 20 seconds and died within a minute. Not a video for the squemish.

a 50gr. fmj @ 800 fps is not a toy.

 

[481]

Stopping power is a myth.

This.

If only everyone had gotten the memo.

 

[1SOW]

The bullet manufacturers spend the money and time to develop effective performance by bullets due to profits reaped from demand.

No profits = no bullet development.

The gun manufacturers make money by developing handguns that can deliver effective bullets. Effective delivery = profit from demand

A 25 can kill you. So can a stone from David's sling.

 

[Clark]

When I shoot triple loads in a 25acp, they are loud and the recoil really hurts.

 

[stinger 327]

Seems like you answered your own question.

If you are buying a firearm for your wife to keep by the bedside then wouldn't you want her to have something that is a good defense round?

If it's going to be bedside, there's no point in it being small and concealable.

Something that would be very easy for her to manage and offer more firepower would be a .22LR RIFLE with 10+ rounds in it. No recoil, much easier to hit your target, etc.

After putting a few magazines through both I would be very surprised if your wife chose the .25.

My wife is petite but it only took about two shooting sessions starting with .22LR for her work up to be able to handle more powerful riles, pistols, shotguns.

If you are looking for a handgun for self defense at home I would look at a full size (K frame etc) .38 special with a 4" or larger barrel. Very light recoil IMO.

Also a full sized 9mm pistol will tend to be light recoiling.

Is .25 worthless? No, but as you yourself mentioned there are better options.

I would guess if you took your wife to a range with a pocket sized .25 auto and a full size 9mm she'll get better accuracy and probably less percieved recoil from the 9mm.

.25 is a centerfire cartridge much more reliable than the .22 LR rimfire cartridge.

 

[stinger 327]

The bullet manufacturers spend the money and time to develop effective performance by bullets due to profits reaped from demand.

No profits = no bullet development.

The gun manufacturers make money by developing handguns that can deliver effective bullets. Effective delivery = profit from demand

A 25 can kill you. So can a stone from David's sling.

.25 ACP bullet is best in FMJ so then at least you will get the most penetration possible in that caliber. In hollowpoint form the .25 doesn't travel fast enough to expand so FMJ is preferred and feeds more reliable than hollowpoint.

 

[peacemaker45]

All handguns suck, why pick the one that sucks the most?

 

[CZguy]

All handguns suck, why pick the one that sucks the most?

Just out of curiosity, have you read this thread?

 

[Sport45]

I used to think of .25acp as an expensive reloadable alternative to .22lr.

Now I think of .25acp as a viable alternative to .22lr because at least it's reloadable.

But to be honest the only thing I've ever used the round (a dummy) for was as a magazine follower in Dad's Visible Loader.

 

[otasan56]

No. I am sure that there are other 9mms that can handle +p+ ammo. And having a Glock doesn't guarantee victory in a gun fight.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I enjoy plinking with the .25 auto, but I reload. Dollar for dollar, .25 factory ammo offers the LEAST return for the dollar of all factory ammo. I fully understand why people take no interest in the .25, even for range fun. If .25 ammo were priced more like .22 rimfire, more people would shoot and own them.

 

[DMZ]

I swung by the sporting goods section of the local discount store the other day to see if they had any restock up. In the pistol ammo section, there were still 2 boxes of .25 Auto sitting there. That was it.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

And the price was?

 

[DMZ]

I didn't notice.

 

[SHR970]

When I see statements like this I just have to speak up:

Tiny Hands?
That is why Glock makes Model 26, 27, and 36.

People who make statements like this do not understand that people small hands and short fingers have issues with double stack magazines. Understanding = zero, zip, nada. I see this all too often and this junk usually comes from someone on the plus side of the bell curve. Small hands are mens size 7 1/2 - 8, XS is size 7; please look at a glove sizing chart. Tiny is womens size 6.

Shortening the grip does not do ANYTHING for the grip width, circumference, or trigger reach. People of the smaller hand sizes don't do well with certain guns; I know because I am one of them. Glocks and size 7 1/2 hands means I MUST hold improperly to get my finger on the trigger. Same for XD's, Beratta 92's, etc.

Some people are caliber limited due to hand size. Yes, we want the biggest caliber that we can shoot well. We also need a platform that we can hold well. More importantly, a platform that we can deploy under stress well. For some people that is calibers like 25 auto and 32 auto. Just because your big paws make these small guns disappear and you get slide bit does not mean we all do.

The first rule is to find a gun that fits well; that generally means that it will point well. If it fits well and points well, then look for caliber. If it fits and points well, you will be more likely to hit where you need to. With that comes the confidence that may very well end it before you have to pull the trigger. If you do have to pull the trigger, you are more likely to hit where you aim. Even the mouse calibers will do their job if you put them in the right place. 25's have put many people in their graves. There is a reason that this puny caliber has lasted soooo long (1905 - present).