Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Wow. Couldn't have said that better, myself.
-Sam
why sporterize?
- Thread starter coosbaycreep
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Wow. Couldn't have said that better, myself.
-Sam
I'm a tinkerer and a problem-solver by trade and by instinct.
I have a modest collection of firearms, and only a few of them haven't been modified in any way since I acquired them.
It is rare that I see an off-the-shelf firearm that I can't improve upon at least a little bit to better suit my desires for it.
One of the weapons I've never modified is a milsurp vz-24. The stock is beat up and it doesn't look very good, but it shoots wonderfully and fits me well, so I'm keeping it stock. It's my iron-sighted bolt gun.
The m44 I bought had a horrible front sight, but shot straight. The rifle was capable of putting holes in things that I couldn't even see clearly at range using iron sights. So I scoped it. Then the bolt needed to be bent for clearance, so i bent it. Then the cheek weld was wrong, so I monte-carlo'd it. I slapped on a bipod and now I can put holes in paper that i couldn't see with iron sights.
It's not that the rifle wasn't capable of making the shots before, it's that I wasn't capable of seeing the target clearly at range. Before cosmo tells me it's because I don't know how to shoot these rifles the way they were intended, I'm going to go ahead and declare that B.S.. I don't know how to see the bullseye at 200 yards without optics. If there's some trick to making your eyes work like telescopes someone please let me know.
The way these were meant to be used was aim, fire, repeat at enemy soldiers who were shooting back. That's not how I use them, and hopefully I'll never use them that way.
Sure, trained soldiers could hit an enemy at long ranges with these guns and their iron sights. But they weren't getting the pinpoint accuracy I'm trying to squeeze out of the gun. They were aiming at a 6 foot tall target. I'm aiming at a dot that's a couple of inches in diameter at most. A scope makes sense for me.
I have a modest collection of firearms, and only a few of them haven't been modified in any way since I acquired them.
It is rare that I see an off-the-shelf firearm that I can't improve upon at least a little bit to better suit my desires for it.
One of the weapons I've never modified is a milsurp vz-24. The stock is beat up and it doesn't look very good, but it shoots wonderfully and fits me well, so I'm keeping it stock. It's my iron-sighted bolt gun.
The m44 I bought had a horrible front sight, but shot straight. The rifle was capable of putting holes in things that I couldn't even see clearly at range using iron sights. So I scoped it. Then the bolt needed to be bent for clearance, so i bent it. Then the cheek weld was wrong, so I monte-carlo'd it. I slapped on a bipod and now I can put holes in paper that i couldn't see with iron sights.
It's not that the rifle wasn't capable of making the shots before, it's that I wasn't capable of seeing the target clearly at range. Before cosmo tells me it's because I don't know how to shoot these rifles the way they were intended, I'm going to go ahead and declare that B.S.. I don't know how to see the bullseye at 200 yards without optics. If there's some trick to making your eyes work like telescopes someone please let me know.
The way these were meant to be used was aim, fire, repeat at enemy soldiers who were shooting back. That's not how I use them, and hopefully I'll never use them that way.
Sure, trained soldiers could hit an enemy at long ranges with these guns and their iron sights. But they weren't getting the pinpoint accuracy I'm trying to squeeze out of the gun. They were aiming at a 6 foot tall target. I'm aiming at a dot that's a couple of inches in diameter at most. A scope makes sense for me.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
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- Nov 14, 2007
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Hee, hee, glad I'm not the only one. It *usually* lowers the value too, or at best, adds no particular value. But it makes me happy, so...
That depends on how you define value.
I don't plan on ever selling a single gun. Resale value doesn't matter to me.
However, if my great grandson can go out and put a hole in the x-ring 50 years from now with a gun I 'customized' that's a part of my legacy and is more valuable to me than any sum of money.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, and hopefully your grandson does treasure that rifle, and your efforts.
Unfortunately, the "what's it worth" columns in the gun magazines, and many many posts here and on other forums often feature tales that run more like, "My grandpop left me a .30-40 Krag that he bought through an NRA program in 1938. In the 60s he cut the barrel down, changed the stock, and drilled and tapped it for a scope mount. I've got plenty of rifles that shoot more accurately, but I sure wish that old Krag was still original. It sure isn't "worth" much now..." Instead of appreciating his Grandfather's hard work, he's lamenting his short-sighted judgement.
Maybe that's a fault in the grandson's priorities, and maybe it's reality. I can't make up his mind for him.
It isn't that customizing something is ALWAYS the worst choice. But it's surely something you want to do with clarity and as much understanding as you can obtain.
-Sam
Yes, and hopefully your grandson does treasure that rifle, and your efforts.
"Unfortunately, the "what's it worth" columns in the gun magazines, and many many posts here and on other forums often feature tales that run more like, "My grandpop left me a .30-40 Krag that he bought through an NRA program in 1938. In the 60s he cut the barrel down, changed the stock, and drilled and tapped it for a scope mount. I've got plenty of rifles that shoot more accurately, but I sure wish that old Krag was still original. It sure isn't "worth" much now..." Instead of appreciating his Grandfather's hard work, he's lamenting his short-sighted judgement.
Maybe that's a fault in the grandson's priorities, and maybe it's reality. I can't make up his mind for him.
It isn't that customizing something is ALWAYS the worst choice. But it's surely something you want to do with clarity and as much understanding as you can obtain."
LOL! If that's what my grandson thinks, then he can kiss my cold, dead arse. Just sayin...
"Unfortunately, the "what's it worth" columns in the gun magazines, and many many posts here and on other forums often feature tales that run more like, "My grandpop left me a .30-40 Krag that he bought through an NRA program in 1938. In the 60s he cut the barrel down, changed the stock, and drilled and tapped it for a scope mount. I've got plenty of rifles that shoot more accurately, but I sure wish that old Krag was still original. It sure isn't "worth" much now..." Instead of appreciating his Grandfather's hard work, he's lamenting his short-sighted judgement.
Maybe that's a fault in the grandson's priorities, and maybe it's reality. I can't make up his mind for him.
It isn't that customizing something is ALWAYS the worst choice. But it's surely something you want to do with clarity and as much understanding as you can obtain."
LOL! If that's what my grandson thinks, then he can kiss my cold, dead arse. Just sayin...
Cosmoline
Member
OK, let me try to figure this one out. By advocating leaving surplus military rifles alone I'm not only helping to destroy the "foundations of America's future," but I'm also some kind of a traitor for trying to preserve the "relics of the Soviet past."
I wonder how D-Day would have gone with 10 million additional Wehrmacht troops waiting for our guys at Normandy. Those relics of the Soviet past you deride helped to prevent that from happening. But by all means let's hack them to bits so they're more familiar to modern American eyes.
And what about the vastly more rare Finnish Mosins I've seen hacked up beyond all recognition (HUBAR)? Are you OK with that as well?
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TCB in TN
Member
A few weeks ago, an older guy I know (who is a mechanic) was talking with me outside Walmart. While there a 72 chevy truck came rolling by. Had been painted Neon green, with a bunch of tricked out decals, lowered with a set of flashy rims, and was shaking from both a big block, and a thumping stereo. He watched it go buy and commented on how big a shame it was to see such a great old truck ruined like that.
I happen to know the kid (25yr old) who built it, and he has won a dozen best in classes, several best sound system competitions, built the motor, did the body work, paint, and a BUNCH of inside customization that I personally think is cool, even if not to my taste. It is his baby, and he has put his heart and soul into it. In my book that is cool.
Now that said I see a lot more bad 'tricked out" vehicles than I see good, but in general the people who do it ALL think that theirs is great. I am fine with that. Same thing with bubba'd guns. I have refinished a bunch of guns over the years, and have plans to do many more. Some of what I want to do will likely not please anyone else but me! I am also fine with that.
I happen to know the kid (25yr old) who built it, and he has won a dozen best in classes, several best sound system competitions, built the motor, did the body work, paint, and a BUNCH of inside customization that I personally think is cool, even if not to my taste. It is his baby, and he has put his heart and soul into it. In my book that is cool.
Now that said I see a lot more bad 'tricked out" vehicles than I see good, but in general the people who do it ALL think that theirs is great. I am fine with that. Same thing with bubba'd guns. I have refinished a bunch of guns over the years, and have plans to do many more. Some of what I want to do will likely not please anyone else but me! I am also fine with that.
earlthegoat2
Member
I just want to make sure no one is missing the essence of this thread.
First, there is a responsiblity of sorts to preserve the past.
Second, there was a need in the past for cheap sporter rifles.
Third, modern sporterization is impractical.
Fourth, though it can become blurry at times when overused terms start getting thrown around, there is a difference between sporterizing an old military rifle and bubbaizing it.
First, there is a responsiblity of sorts to preserve the past.
Second, there was a need in the past for cheap sporter rifles.
Third, modern sporterization is impractical.
Fourth, though it can become blurry at times when overused terms start getting thrown around, there is a difference between sporterizing an old military rifle and bubbaizing it.
Cosmo, you keep saying it's about making these guns look more American. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
I made a sporter because i wanted to. If I wanted a Remington or a Winchester i could've saved up and bought one, but I didn't. I wanted a project. The mosin was a cheap starting point. I have another project now, but instead of starting from a milsurp I'm starting from a brand new receiver. If I could've bought a similar milsurp for the same price as my new receiver I would've started with that.
I looked into the history of my mosin a bit before I modified it. That history is still there. The rifle lives on. It just looks a little different and gets treated a little better. Its history is still being written.
I'm perplexed as to why you have such a problem with sporterizing. Is it a sentimental thing? Is it outrage over the economics of the decision to modify a milsurp? Is it because you don't think a hobbyist can do a good job of it?
What's the big deal?
I made a sporter because i wanted to. If I wanted a Remington or a Winchester i could've saved up and bought one, but I didn't. I wanted a project. The mosin was a cheap starting point. I have another project now, but instead of starting from a milsurp I'm starting from a brand new receiver. If I could've bought a similar milsurp for the same price as my new receiver I would've started with that.
I looked into the history of my mosin a bit before I modified it. That history is still there. The rifle lives on. It just looks a little different and gets treated a little better. Its history is still being written.
I'm perplexed as to why you have such a problem with sporterizing. Is it a sentimental thing? Is it outrage over the economics of the decision to modify a milsurp? Is it because you don't think a hobbyist can do a good job of it?
What's the big deal?
gun addict
Member
the big deal is that there is a finite amount of those old military surplus firearms in original condition. By chopping it up to your whim you are taking them out of the market and denying the collectors of their price not to mention a piece of history.
yes, you can say you're "creating your own history" with that modified Mil-sup of yours but that's not what collectors and historians look for. We want the firearms in the condition it served in whatever conflict with if that make sense?
sry, but as far as we're concerned the fact that you shot a deer with your modified rifle will never replace its original history.
Have you seen badly chrome plated Luger? Or chopped up Krag? Yeah i bet their owners thought it was cool at the time too, but all they did is take a piece of historic piece out of the circulation
yes, you can say you're "creating your own history" with that modified Mil-sup of yours but that's not what collectors and historians look for. We want the firearms in the condition it served in whatever conflict with if that make sense?
sry, but as far as we're concerned the fact that you shot a deer with your modified rifle will never replace its original history.
Have you seen badly chrome plated Luger? Or chopped up Krag? Yeah i bet their owners thought it was cool at the time too, but all they did is take a piece of historic piece out of the circulation
gun addict
Member
my last post might sound somewhat selffish but B Gone you must understand collectors really care about military surplus firearms as living history. How would you feel if some kid chrome plated your Grandpa's shotgun or find a piece of your family heirloom and mess around with them?
It's the feeling for me, whenever i see an old Finnish Mosin chopped badly or a K98k destroyed it feels like a slap to the face
my motto when it comes to milsup is "thou shall do no harm". I spent $100 on a no drill and tap scopemount for my $200 Yugo K98k just so i can shoot it scope. Would it be much cheaper if i just drill and tapped it? Yes. But i chose the non-drill and tap mount because if i want to return the K98k to its original confuration it would take less than 5 minutes. Although it looks tacky my Yugo Captrued K98k does everything i want it to do AND retains its originality
It's the feeling for me, whenever i see an old Finnish Mosin chopped badly or a K98k destroyed it feels like a slap to the face
my motto when it comes to milsup is "thou shall do no harm". I spent $100 on a no drill and tap scopemount for my $200 Yugo K98k just so i can shoot it scope. Would it be much cheaper if i just drill and tapped it? Yes. But i chose the non-drill and tap mount because if i want to return the K98k to its original confuration it would take less than 5 minutes. Although it looks tacky my Yugo Captrued K98k does everything i want it to do AND retains its originality
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There's a huge difference between turning a run of the mill Mosin-Nagant into an economy hunting rifle and doing a home cold blue job on an original unissued H&R M1 rifle and topping it off by handcarving the stock.
I think that there are people on both sides of this discussion who don't really see the difference, and I think that's a big part of this problem.
For example: I bought a .308 Ishapore Enfield for $75 a few years back. The first 2 inches of rifling at the muzzle were completely gone due to very poor but enthusiastic cleaning techniques. The metal was thickly covered with a black paint and the stock was so oil soaked and rotten that you could literally poke holes in it with your finger.
So I cut off the ruined part of the bbl, recrowned the muzzle, stripped all the black paint, reblued the metal, removed the rear sight, replaced the stock with a plastic one and put a forward mounted scope on it. Now, instead of being just this side of garbage it's a decent shooter even if it is still pretty ugly.
But someday, probably after I'm dead, someone will post a picture of that rifle on the internet complaining how some idiot ruined a piece of history.
I think that there are people on both sides of this discussion who don't really see the difference, and I think that's a big part of this problem.
For example: I bought a .308 Ishapore Enfield for $75 a few years back. The first 2 inches of rifling at the muzzle were completely gone due to very poor but enthusiastic cleaning techniques. The metal was thickly covered with a black paint and the stock was so oil soaked and rotten that you could literally poke holes in it with your finger.
So I cut off the ruined part of the bbl, recrowned the muzzle, stripped all the black paint, reblued the metal, removed the rear sight, replaced the stock with a plastic one and put a forward mounted scope on it. Now, instead of being just this side of garbage it's a decent shooter even if it is still pretty ugly.
But someday, probably after I'm dead, someone will post a picture of that rifle on the internet complaining how some idiot ruined a piece of history.
Mr_Pale_Horse
Member
'Swords into plowshares?' assuming you only intend to hunt (or hoe a garden) with your 'project' (no self defense or militia use allowed).
Clipper
Member
More likely, he'll be saying " Gee, some poor schmuck sure put a lot of love into this baby...Too bad" as he's heaving it into the same blast furnace with all the 'pristeen collector rifles'...
Call me selfish, but if the day I die, my home collapses, my truck explodes and the guvmint finally steals the last $40.00 from my checking account, I couldn't care less. Guess how much I care if some milsurp snob gets into a snit when he sees my rifle?
BTW, my wife says to say she feels the same...
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KevininPa
Member
Hey, This is America,.........
........the land of free will. If it's yours and you want to sporterize it, go for it. You like original condition milsurps, keep them that way. Some people like something custom that they worked on themselves to call their own. Others want the history. Either way is great, just post pics! All of us agree on liking gun porn!
........the land of free will. If it's yours and you want to sporterize it, go for it. You like original condition milsurps, keep them that way. Some people like something custom that they worked on themselves to call their own. Others want the history. Either way is great, just post pics!
All of us agree on liking gun porn!What if it's done well?
I really don't feel like I destroyed anything when i sporterized my m44. When I bought it I bought it out of a pile of similar guns at the LGS. I looked into its history and didn't find anything special. It didn't show enough wear to have seen much combat.
Since I don't sell guns, it went out of circulation when i bought it. at that point, what difference does it make if I keep it stock or not? I didn't cut in line in front of a bunch of collectors to buy it. If they wanted it they could have bought it or any of the others at the LGS.
These just aren't rare enough yet for me to fully understand your outrage. If anything, I did you collectors a favor by removing one more stock m44 milsurp from circulation. Now yours are rarer.
gun addict
Member
B Yond think of all those milsups as attachment, if i collector rare stuff like Greco-Roman statue i would'nt be happy if someone smashed a few even though they're making mine more rare, that's not how it works. I guess in part i also find full stocked milsups much more pleaseing to the eyes
Well done sportarization is something most collectors can tolerate giving the circumstances. However for every well done sportarization there are nine badly chopped sporter-wannabes with badly sanded stock and poorly welded bolt handles
Sure saxon pig, you get carbon credits for keeping that one GI How would you feel now if i chrome plated that S&W revolver for corrosion resistenance and then chopped the barrel down to a snubbie? Maybe do a conversion so i can shoot .38 special out of it?
Well done sportarization is something most collectors can tolerate giving the circumstances. However for every well done sportarization there are nine badly chopped sporter-wannabes with badly sanded stock and poorly welded bolt handles
Sure saxon pig, you get carbon credits for keeping that one GI
How would you feel now if i chrome plated that S&W revolver for corrosion resistenance and then chopped the barrel down to a snubbie? Maybe do a conversion so i can shoot .38 special out of it? Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Oooohhh. Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Somebody's grandson's gonna be kicking dirt on his grave over that!
-Sam
I really think todays generation is missing out on how much fun we had creating our own riflles. I will never forget my grandfather looking over at my first mauser I buchered and pointing out my mistakes and poor craftsmanship, but thats how we learned, by doing. I learned a lot from those early attempts.I am sorry to see kids today would rather play computer than tackle sporterizing a rifle.
surfinUSA
Member
I sporterized an M-48 as a backup huning rifle. I replaced the stock with one from Boyd's, relpaced the rear sight with a scout scope mount and installed a Burris scout scope (which cost more than the rifle).
Its still an 8mm mauser and can be converted back in less than a half hour. But it was never a real military rifle just a fall back reserve gun that never saw any military service and has no collectability as far as I'm concerned.
However, with European ammo its now a good foul weather hunting rifle for anything found in North America. No, its not exactly the scout rifle that old windbag Cooper invisioned, But it works well and going the scout scope route was alot cheaper than drilling and taping with a cut down bolt handle.
Its still an 8mm mauser and can be converted back in less than a half hour. But it was never a real military rifle just a fall back reserve gun that never saw any military service and has no collectability as far as I'm concerned.
However, with European ammo its now a good foul weather hunting rifle for anything found in North America. No, its not exactly the scout rifle that old windbag Cooper invisioned, But it works well and going the scout scope route was alot cheaper than drilling and taping with a cut down bolt handle.
TCB in TN
Member
I like the cut-up Krag! Need to make me one just like it!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b94/Sherwin2004/Springfield 1903/Pix1-6-10089.jpg
Would rather have a stock 1903, but wouldn't turn this down if it followed me home!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b94/Sherwin2004/Springfield 1903/Pix1-6-10089.jpg
Would rather have a stock 1903, but wouldn't turn this down if it followed me home!
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