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Why the fuss?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by PR-NJ, May 10, 2012.

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  1. PR-NJ

    PR-NJ Well-Known Member

    I may be missing something, but why all the outrage over the "no firearms" signs in various businesses. The signs are primarily there for tort liability reasons.

    If you have a legal CCW permit, who's going to know you're carrying as long as your gun stays concealed. Discretion is the better part of valor. Or put another way, why make a stink if you don't have to.
  2. PT92

    PT92 Well-Known Member

    Not always--Many businesses are simply liberal anti-gun establishments of which IMO should be boycotted in order that they receive the message that Second Amendment restrictions=No BUSINESS!

  3. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Well-Known Member

    In some places they carry the force of law, and violating them makes to doer unlawful. Not a good position for a responsible gun owner.
  4. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    The signs are directed at you and are saying that you aren't welcome. If you're not welcome then why not take your money to the business that doesn't post that you aren't.

    We've had several members explain that the signs are meaningless to the very people that the business is trying to keep out, but that those of us that can afford to carry have had the background check to purchase the handgun as well as to get the permit are the very people they'd like to have. Statistically we're unlikely to cause trouble. Law abiding citizens exercising a constitutionally guaranteed right with some discretionary income to spend. If the wrongheaded prejudice of such signs is accepted without comment then the business never learns that their profits are being turned away.
  5. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Well-Known Member

    What do you base that on ? And if that were true, why wouldn't most all business's put up those signs if there was that type of a concern ?
  6. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

    Think about it. How much sense do they make? They only stop law abiding folks from carrying. The criminal see it as a gun free zone. I make a policy to never patronize a business that has such a sign.
  7. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Well-Known Member

    I see the signs as a (mistaken) response to the proliferation of "shall-issue" carry permits. Tort liability? How could that be a burden on a premises owner unless he required firearms? Any liability for accidental shootings should be on the gun carrier. What's next, no baseball bat signs? No chainsaw signs? No Lassiter Laser signs?
  8. coalman

    coalman Well-Known Member

    What locales are those? Not leaving when asked becomes trespassing, and you could be banned for life (resulting in trespassing if you ever enter again, gun or not), but I'm curious of locales where simple violation the first time is punishable/enforceable by the legal system.
  9. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Well-Known Member

    You go through the fingerprinting, taxing, and more background checks than some police officers, in my state, but you aren't trustworthy?

    If a place doesn't have the common sense and holds no trust in me, they're also not likely to hold my money.
  10. Twmaster

    Twmaster Well-Known Member


    A properly posted sign makes it a crime to carry in a private business.
  11. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Well-Known Member

    Also, in states where those signs hold the force of law, if you were ever forced to defend yourself even if you're in the right you're looking at charges. In my state your loss of CCW for 5 years.
  12. 303tom

    303tom member

    I could not have said that better.................
  13. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

    Well, there are several responses.

    First, why is it permissible for a person running a store that's open to the public to sacrifice MY rights for HIS supposed tort liability? Wouldn't a better sign be: "If you enter this store legally armed, you are agreeing that I will be 'held harmless' at your expense for any and all damages and costs that may result."

    Next, you seem to be implying that carrying concealed into a store that has signs against it is a big nothing. I know that people vary on this question, but if I have seen the sign and go in armed any way, I am showing the owner no respect, and I am being dishonest.

    Then, you seem to imply there are no penalties involved, "as long as your gun stays concealed." But the ONLY point of having the gun in the store is that you MIGHT have to expose it to save your life. You may then be in for a lot of things: a civil suit that against you by the person you shot or drew down on, with them using your dishonesty in carrying "where prohibited" as a impeachment of character; a civil suit FROM THE OWNER for any legal costs, loss of business, damages/clean-up, mental anguish, etc.

    And if you live in a may-issue state, permanent loss of CCW. Hey, maybe a prosecutor thinks he can, like the civil attorney, use your decision to carry where prohibited against you, and goes for a criminal charge--with everything (like loss of employment) that entails.

    So, hey, if you know your gun is absolutely "going to stay concealed", then why bring it into the store; but if you do need it, then it won't be staying concealed--and then, depending on the circumstances, carrying where it was posted not to, could make your post-shooting legal situation much more interesting than you'd like.

    The solution: get rid of those signs (ask the owner), or shop elsewhere and carry.

    HEAVY METAL 1 Well-Known Member

    There is a mall where I live that is posted against CC. The hypocrasy of it all is that there is a fantasy store in it that has those bizarre skull headed, dragon, etc knives, small to large, swords-small letter opener size to claymores! But I'm not allowed to carry a gun in there:banghead:
  15. Manson

    Manson Well-Known Member

    For me it's pretty simple. A business tries to deny my rights. And then smiles at me and asks for my money.

    A business posts a sign. "We do not support freedom of speech. People who have something to say are trouble makers. Please remain silent."

    Could you remain silent and go in and spend your money. If you believe that the Second Amendment gives you the right to keep and bear arms but you can't be troubled to respond to those who would deny it you don't deserve it.

    No one is calling for noisy protests. Just speak with your wallet. If you are comfortable politely letting the business know why you are going elsewhere all the better.
  16. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Well-Known Member

    True, and unless you (politely!) point out to the business why you are not spending money there instead of somewhere else, they will not know, and it will not change.

    I just don't want to spend money somewhere that disrespects my efforts and license, without guaranteeing my safety on their own efforts.

    On the other hand, if I manage to find another gamer shop with a sign proclaiming "gaming is not our only hobby" on a used target by the register, they're getting my buck. :)
  17. Bushpilot

    Bushpilot Well-Known Member

    I don't want to financially support any business that has a problem with me legally carrying my gun. I also think that if I were a crook I'd view businesses who post those signs as great potential targets.
  18. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Well-Known Member

    The signs hold no weight where I live so legally I can just ignore them and carry on but I choose not to do business with these establishments solely in support of my brothers in arms so to speak that live in other states that the signs do carry the weight of the law . It's not a businesses right to deny us ours. And yes if I'm about to walk into a store that has one of those big ugly signs in the front window I enter and inform the manager/owner why they are not going to get my money and give them the opportunity to take the sign down so I can buy what I need and they can get my money. Out of the half dozen or so times I done this (signs aren't really common here) It has worked once.
  19. coalman

    coalman Well-Known Member

    Interesting. So, a business can basically create "law" via signage? What if they posted, because for example the business found it disruptive, "No talking on cell phones in store"? Or, for example, "You may not enter this business with peanuts" because an employee has a fatal allergy. Are these legally enforceable crimal offenses (arrest, jail time, fine, removal of property/rights, etc.) too under this "a sign makes it a crime" Texas law? Or, does it just apply to guns? Just curios.
  20. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Well-Known Member

    Just for guns.

    And Texas isn't the only state where a business, or simply an employee working there who decides to post a sign, can 'create a law' specific to their premises.
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