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WI: the concealed carry fight has begun

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Monkeyleg, Aug 10, 2005.

  1. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Decatur, AL
    On another thread is an article quoting two WI police chiefs as saying that they're going to come down hard if WI gets concealed carry. The majority of the article, though, was about WAVE (Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort).

    Tomorrow, WAVE is going to have an "educational" seminar in Madison, the state's capitol. The email from Heidi at WAVE is below.

    On the other thread, I mentioned that I was puzzled why WAVE would be starting so early, especially since they don't do much to begin with. This afternoon I heard a rumor--and it's just that at this point--from a credible source that the Joyce Foundation was going to dump a lot of money into WI this year to defeat concealed carry. If that's the case, it explains why WAVE is active so early; they're in it for the money.

    Anyway, here's the email. If you're in Madison tomorrow, stop in and pay these folks a visit. After all, there's free refreshments!

    From: Heidi Rose [mailto:hrose@waveedfund.org]
    Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:10 AM
    To: wave@waveedfund.org
    Subject: Please Join Us: Thursday, August 11th
    Please Join Us: Thursday, August 11th
    WAVE Educational Fund
    will be hosting an informational seminar.
    “Carrying Concealed Weapons in America;
    Implications for Wisconsin”
    1:00pm – 3:00pm
    The Inn on the Park (In Capitol Square)
    22 South Carroll St.
    Madison, WI 53703
    Open to the public
    Refreshment provided
    In accordance with Wisconsin State Ethics boards rules Legislators and staff are asked to donate $5.00 for refreshments.

    RSVP Appreciated.
    For more information contact:
    WAVE Educational Fund (414)351-9283 or wave@waveedfund.org
  2. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Dec 24, 2002
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    If you didn't know better, you'd almost figure the limousine leftists were a bunch of capitalists.
  3. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Decatur, AL
    Standing Wolf, thanks for replying. I notice this thread has had 137 views, yet yours is the only reply.

    The sort of "rumor" I'm referring to didn't come from some guy I met at the range. It came from people close enough to the top at a national level to give credence to the rumor.

    So, I'm hoping that folks from WI will take this to heart. The anti's are starting early, they're getting their press early, they're getting their police chief and sheriff "ducks in a row" early.

    The people from WAVE, just like most liberal advocacy groups, aren't into hard work. But they do like to be paid for not working hard.

    And that is what is confounding me about their activities in the last week. The WAVE people are actually working.

    I'd give better than even chances that this rumor is true, that Wisconsin is going to be Ground Zero this year for the anti's fight against any further ground taken by pro-CCW forces, and that outside forces are going to dump a ton of money into the state.

    And here's why I believe such a scenario is possible: it's no secret to gun owners in WI that Doyle is anti-gun. It's also no secret that his approval ratings are poor. And it's also no secret that his opponents--Congressman Mark Green and Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker--have both declared their support for CCW.

    If the Joyce Foundation can manage to neutralize the concealed carry issue, Doyle will get more gun owner votes. But if Doyle's veto is overriden, he's weakened, and the NRA wins.

    If Doyle wins the veto override but loses the election, Wisconsin will still become the 47th state to have legal concealed carry, since Green or Walker will sign the bill.

    There's a lot at stake here, including the 2008 presidential elections. Wisconsin has become something of a swing state.

    So, what are my fellow Cheeseheads going to do about it?

    Well, how about donating money to match the Joyce Foundation? We have the Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association as well as our political action committee, the Wisconsin Concealed Carry Movement .

    Funds contributed to the WCCA go for literature, postcards that we provide for free for people to write their legislators, and other efforts. We've been trying very hard to raise money for newspaper ads in targetted districts, including having the Wolf River Artisans' Guild hold this raffle. So far, ticket sales have been disappointing.

    We also work to raise funds for candidates that support concealed carry. If we don't get a veto override, we're going to need to raise more than the $16,000 or so that we contributed to candidates in the last election cycle. We're going to need to raise five or even six times that amount to help oust Doyle and all of his cronies.

    I've read posts on packing.org complaining that the WCCA and WCCM are just about raising money. To a degree, yes, that's what our volunteers do. But for what reason? To get the word out, and to help friendly politicians.

    Being a keyboard commando doesn't cost anything. Printing literature, renting gun show tables, contributing to campaigns, and other efforts costs money. Sometimes lots of money.

    Truth be told, I was feeling down in the dumps about our chances this year. But, with Jeri Bonavia and WAVE coming out so early, I get the feeling that the Dem's are afraid to buck the gun owners.

    Please, folks: help out, with your time or your money.
  4. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Well-Known Member

    Jan 10, 2004
    Amusing name...

    The Third Wave.

    Not entirely related, but interesting nonetheless.

    Luck to you, I'll spread the word as well.
  5. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

    Dec 22, 2002
    Terlingua, TX; Thomasville,GA
    I suggest asking why Wisconsin folks are so bloodthirsty and violent? After all, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement has lauded the CHL program there, with negligible problems. Same for Texas' Department of Public Safety. It's quite supportive of our CHL system.

    So if nothing bad happened following passage of CHL laws in Florida and Texas, why would bad things be expected in Wisconsin? Are the doctors and lawyers and engineers and school teachers there particularly hostile? Does a Wisconsinite live in fear of plumbers, roofers, electricians and school bus drivers?

    :), Art
  6. StopTheGrays

    StopTheGrays Well-Known Member

    Jun 25, 2004
    Concealed Carry Gets Another Chance

    Is this provision still in the bill Sen. Zien is going to offer? I know some CLEOs were whining about the cost of doing the background check and paperwork as a justification for not supporting the bill earlier--rather than just stating they were flat out opposed to the idea of concealed carry. If this is in there it will be interesting to see what they will say now as a reason to oppose concealed carry.

    Also, thanks for the reminder. It has been a while since I sent my elected reps. a letter and this will give me time to encourage my friends and coworkers to send letters too.
  7. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Decatur, AL
    StopTheGrays, last I heard the provision for private parties to run the show was still in the bill. I suspect it's there to get the various government entities--the sheriffs, the DOJ, and others--to look at the revenue potential and then start trying to get a piece of the action.

    It's pretty hard to say you're against the bill if you're trying to be first in line to collect the money.
  8. DeseoUnTaco

    DeseoUnTaco Well-Known Member

    Jun 26, 2005
    Concealed carry reform is likely to be the end of gun control in the US. Just like gun control is never going to be a serious issue in Switzerland as long as everyone has a machinegun or rocket launcher or other materiel in his home, if millions of Americans are carrying guns every day, gun control will seem pointless. What's the point of a ban on assault weapons, standard capacity magazines, etc, if people are carrying?

    Also, to really win the gun control fight, they will need to demonize guns, make them seem abnormal, something that only government officials should have access to, etc. With CCW, carrying a gun becomes as normal as wearing shoes.

    Too bad for the Brady Bunch, there will probably be 40 states with shall-issue CCW within the next 12 to 24 months. California is even a possibility. Once that happens gun control is a dead dead dead issue.

    That's why they are fighting so hard in WI and the few remaining holdouts. Good for them, they're going to lose. Wisconsin is a rural state and it's going to pass one way or another.

    In California, victory will happen through the efforts of one man (alias JM) who is going to defeat them in the courts.
  9. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Dec 24, 2002
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    DeseoUnTaco, I sincerely hope you're right!
  10. Barbara

    Barbara Well-Known Member

    Nov 3, 2003
    Good luck, Dick. There's not a lot I can do to help from over here, but I wish I could.
  11. rwschill

    rwschill member

    Oct 30, 2004
    Henderson, NV
    Wis battleground on CCW

    Even though Wis is a rural state I believe that the CCW battle will be won or lost in Madison and Milwaukee. That is where the people and money are.
    I live in northern WI and I think up here it would pass without problem, even Greenbay, Wausaw, Lacrosse, but the power is in the southern cities.
  12. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Decatur, AL
    DeseoUnTaco, they don't need to demonize guns. Wisconsin has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all fifty states. Something like one out of every 15 to 20 hunters is an NRA member, more than twice the national average.

    That's part of the problem, and part of the solution. The problem is that hunters--especially those in rural areas--just don't see the need to carry concealed weapons.

    Everytime our volunteers work the gun shows, it's a perverted effort: the people who really want concealed carry are from the urban areas represented by anti-gun legislators; and the people who largely don't care about concealed carry are from smaller rural towns represented by pro-gun legislators, both Democrat and Republican.

    The problem is that 20% of the state's population lives in Milwaukee County alone, where the anti's are in the majority. Add in Madison, Racine, Kenosha, and Green Bay, and it gets worse.

    The real problem, though, is that the media in these markets heavily skews the coverage to the anti side.

    Three years ago I was begging the editor of the op/ed section to let me write a piece longer than their usual 250-word-allowed letter.

    Two years ago I got a call from the op/ed section editor asking me to write a 1200-word piece. I was floored.

    But that was just one article/column/op-ed piece, versus hundreds of news stories quoting Chief DungForBrains talking about "blood in the streets." The public sees that every day.

    If anyone here really cares about getting a concealed carry bill passed in Wisconsin, here's how you can help: donate your time; donate your money (to the WCCA or the NRA).

    (Oh, yeah, for those anti's who accuse the WCCA of being just some sort of arm of the NRA: we're independent; we have GOA, JFPO or members of other groups who will not join the NRA, and we have others whose affiliations fall somewhere in between).

    I swore that this year I was not going to get involved. Work is scarce, money is even scarcer, and there's been just too much going on personally with family, my wife's health, and my own.

    But I can't read and listen to the lies of the anti's--especially those anti's who are just in it for the money--and sit back and do nothing.

    I don't pretend to be an odds-maker, but it's looking like our odds may be better this year than last to override Doyle's veto. Maybe.

    But what if the odds are against us? What if you donated money or time, and we don't get an override? What did you lose? A little money or time. That's all. In the whole scheme of life, a little money or a little time devoted to freedom is worth far more than even a week at the range.

    And what would you have gained, even if we didn't get an override? Momentum. A much better shot at knocking Doyle out of office and replacing him with a governor who will sign the cleanest CCW bill possible.

    The fight for concealed carry started in WI in 1992. Every year has brought us closer to winning. Last year we were so close to winning that Doyle had to call in all of his political favors, and then some.

    The anti's have started early. If we "stand down," we will lose the momentum we've gained over the last ten years, and especially the momentum we've rapidly gained over the last four years.

    The WCCA doesn't need one-time volunteers who cry because the bill didn't pass two weeks after they worked a two-hour shift at a gun show. We don't need so-called "volunteers" who are just trying to find out what the training language in the bill is so they can make a few extra bucks setting up their own training companies (oh, yeah, we had plenty of those last year; talk about the cart before the horse).

    We need people who are willing to work for a good cause, and do so for years if necessary in order to reach that goal.

    We already have people who've been working for years. And the goal is in sight, whether it's this year, next year, or 2007.

    If you can write an incisive column or letter that distills the CCW argument to the very basics that the public understands, if you can stand before a TV camera and deliver a poignant sound-bite, if you can do a talk-radio show and descredit the anti's, or if you just want to talk to "hunters and sportsmen" at gun shows: we need you.

    The anti's have already fired the first salvos, courtesy of the media. Senator Zien and Representative Gunderson did a good job in today's Milwaukee Journal Sentinel in laying out what their bill does.

    We may win this year, or we may not. For the life of me, though, I've never understood those folks who only want to join a side when the win looks probable, or who quit when it looks questionable.
  13. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Decatur, AL
    rwschill, sorry I caught your post a bit late.

    We don't need Madison or Milwaukee. We will never get their legislators. Never have, never will.

    We'll get the votes from some representatives and senators from within Milwaukee county, but we're talking about legislators who represent largely conservative districts outside the city.

    The problem is Democrat legislators from very pro-gun areas. Gary Sherman, Assembly Minority Leader Kreuser (pronounced "cruiser," as in one who cruises for prostitutes), and other Dem's will toe Governor Doyle's line.

    Then there are the ones who cannot afford to lose their NRA A+ rating, and there's a ton of them. Gary Sherman used to be one.

    There are solid pro-gun Democrats from solidly pro-gun Democrat districts who don't need Doyle's help, and who will always back gun rights, including bills as "controversial" as concealed carry.

    Then there's those legislators who play both sides. And it's not limited to Democrats. We were sold out on a number of amendments last year by moderate Republicans.

    The question to you, and every other Cheesehead here, is how much time and money are you willing to devote? That's the crux of the matter.

    There are some long-time Democrat legislators whom I know with 100% certainty will vote to override Doyle's veto. They believe in the Second with all their hearts, and they can afford to tell him to stuff it.

    But it's the ones in the middle that need constant pressure.

    The WCCA volunteers are going to have a sit-down soon, and talk about strategy, along with members of other gun organizations.

    Last year, as many volunteers sat in Senator Zien's office, we heard about the blow-up between Senator Russ Decker and Senate Minority Leader Erpenbach from staffers. We knew that a veto override in the Senate was coming.

    Weeks later, we waited for our NRA lobbyist to return from a meeting with Representative Sherman. It only lasted five minutes. It was pretty clear that Sherman had crossed sides, and a veto override in the Assembly was dead.

    What if a dozen of Sherman's constituents had showed up in his office that day? Or two dozen? Or five dozen? Or more?

    In Wisconsin, the NRA is razor-sharp. And our volunteers are very effective in geting out the grass roots. But neither can be effective if the gun owners don't make themselves seen and heard.

    What we need is to have an honest-to-God constituent from each legislator's district visit his office. Every single day. Yeah, that means somebody may have to take a drive to Madison. It's not that bad, though: checking out the college girls alone can make it worth the trip.

    WCCA volunteers are just that: volunteers. Our NRA lobbyists don't get paid anywhere near what our adversaries pay theirs. Lobbyists for the hospitals have been swarming all over the capitol to oppose the CCW bill. These guys make $100,000 to $200,000 a year. And they don't get paid that kind of money because they're cute.

    Lobbyists for the restaurant associations have been visiting. And they're highly paid and highly-connected as well. Ditto for the Tavern League.

    Lobbyists for the State Trooper's have been dropping by. So have representatives for the police chiefs' and sheriff's groups.

    We don't even have a bill yet, and these lobbyists are either trying to cut deals, or kill the bill.

    Where in blazes are WE, the People?

    The more I write, the more angry I get.

    If you want concealed carry in Wisconsin, do something. It doesn't affect me personally, only philosophically.

    So, get off your butts and get involved.

    Or whine.

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