WMD Mega-Thread

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DRC, thank you for the kind words and the responses.


Don:

So, drjones, you think the President is lying for political advantage?!!
Don, you do not understand: He is not lying. He said he would sign the bill, and I trust he would.

Again, that is only possible if the bill passes the house and senate, and ends up on Bush's desk. He is probably confident that such a thing will not happen.

Do you understand that? Its not lying because he WOULD SIGN THE BILL.

But if it never passes and never lands on his desk for him to sign, HOW is it that GWB is lying? :scrutiny:
 
"drjones, are you claiming the Iraqis had a working nuclear reactor when we attacked?..."

DRC, that was a question. Not a statement. Drjones has chosen not to answer that question yet.

What produces nuclear and radioactive material? If you don't have a facility ones self but have the material then one must have access to a facility that produces said material. If one hasn't a facility in which to use radio active materials to produce power then what would its function be? Hair removal?

DRC, Tuwaitha had a nuclear reactor that was bombed to heck. At one time it worked. I would guess that the low-level uranium SEALED by UN inspectors was used at one time to power this reactor.

But you see, there's a BIG difference between SEALED containers of low-grade uranium and "bomb-grade" plutonium. Of course, you know that.

Don
 
Its not lying because he WOULD SIGN THE BILL.

Yes, drjones, he would sign the bill. And by him saying so in advance, he's given political cover to any weak-kneed Republicans that also go along with him on the ban renewal.

Or maybe YOU know something that the NRA and GOA don't? Don't think so!

Don
 
Or maybe YOU know something that the NRA and GOA don't? Don't think so!

Well, you clearly claim to be smarter than Bush and his entire cabinet when you proclaim that saddam doesn't have WMD.

And I don't know what it is that I'm claiming to know, but whatever... :rolleyes:
 
Hello Don.

"DRC, that was a question. Not a statement. Drjones has chosen not to answer that question yet."

Sorry. My bad. It was bombed to oblivion, but again I'm not sure I remember DrJones saying they did have a Nuclear reactor, did he? A secret underground nuclear facility, but I don't think he said reactor. However, I do stand by my question of why radioactive materials were there to begin with and what were they being used for since the concensus is that we all seem to agree that radio active materials were there and discovered.

"DRC, Tuwaitha had a nuclear reactor that was bombed to heck. At one time it worked. I would guess that the low-level uranium SEALED by UN inspectors was used at one time to power this reactor."

Perhaps I need to assertain what these things were being used for then. I cannot rely on a "guess." I'll post what I find ASAP. Thanks for the heads up though.

"But you see, there's a BIG difference between SEALED containers of low-grade uranium and "bomb-grade" plutonium. Of course, you know that."

Yup, I do know that. But I haven't seen where they've said this was SEALED low-grade Uranium not to mention UN Inspectors did not find or go into this area according to reports before or after the bombing. So inspectors couldn't have found something and sealed it if they were never therein the first place, but I'll do a little more looking.

Take care Don and nice talking with you.

DRC
 
SkunkApe-
The reason for doing this is to create the general impression that WMDs are being found all over Iraq. The embedded journalists release the original story with great fanfare. When the eventual retraction comes, its back page news. The lasting impression is that we have found WMDs.
*blink* *blink*

Are you serious? I turn on the evening news and all I can hear are the talking heads screeching about how we haven't found WMDs yet, and how this is all very bad for the Administration's standing.

Well, if that's really your fear, you can relax. The cat is very much out of the bag. :rolleyes:

Moving on to the issue of Did They/Do They have WMDs...OK, we both agree that iraq had them pre-91. The question is if they have them post-91. There is a boatload of (admittedly) circumstantial evidence that they do. There is also the logical inference that, based upon Saddam's history and psychology, they probably still do. I'll also freely admit that the 'smoking gun' has yet to be found. I, however, am still hopeful that it will be.

(paraphrase)Why can't Iraq have WMDs? Other countries do
A couple of reasons:

1. They agreed not to, specifically.
2. It violates a other treaties and conventions as well.
3. Saddam is bat-**** wacko.

#3 is very much the key reason. I'm perfectly OK looking at some other nation, seeing they are a threat, and taking steps to deal with that threat. Those steps may, eventually, include use of force. In this case, after 12 years of screwing around, it did include a use of force. North Korea...are you paying attention?

Faustulus- No condescension, unless you seek it there. Your rejoinder made it sound as if your alternative was to be considered alongside mine for snipping with Occam's famed blade. I was merely pointing out that thet were two seperate (though related) logical entities. Don, at least, missed that point. You, apparently, have not.

Mike
 
Coronach, I appreciate the rational debate.

Of your three points:

1. They agreed not to, specifically.

As of now Iraq has not been proven to have broken this agreement (regardless of how it was obtained.)

2. It violates a other treaties and conventions as well.

Which ones? Name one. I double-dog dare you.


3. Saddam is bat-**** wacko.

I tend to agree, but often wonder if this is just more propaganda. The U.S. is like the boy who cried wolf.

Saddam is a strong ally who should be supported in his war against the Iranian fundamentalist terrorists. Oops, no he's not. In fact he IS a terrorist. Sorry, we got mixed up.

Saddam took the babies off of the respirators! Oops, no he didn't, the Kuwaiti marketing company made it up. We just went along with it.

Our top-secret satellite photos show Saddam has hundreds of thousands of troops on the Saudi border poised to invade them! We must attack now! Oops, no, they don't. The Russians actually released their photos instead of just talking about them. Almost zero Iraqis on the Saudi border.

Saddam intentionally released oil into the Gulf in an act of enviro-terrorism! Oops no he didn't. That was us. Bad shot. Sorry. Accidents happen.

Saddam has huge stockpiles of WMDS poised to wreak havoc on the U.S. and her Allies. Oops, no he doesn't. He must of moved them to Syria. Or destroyed them. Or hid them real good so we can't find them. Or something...

Saddam is and evil madman who tortures his Olympic athletes if they lose! You've got to be kidding me. I actually heard this on NPR, no less. This sounds like something your read while in the grocery store checkout line.

Saddam is a terrorist! Just because he has never actually committed any terrorism doesn't mean he won't soon! Besides, he's an Arab. Everyone know that all Arabs are terrorists. Don't you watch TV? Fundamentalists, Baa'thists, what's the difference? Plus, we're still working on the definition of "terrorism". As soon as we can write it so it includes Hussein, and not us, we'll have him.


Do you still wonder why I have doubts?
 
OK, drjones. DRC requested I ask you if it was SEALED containers of low-grade uranium or "bomb-grade" plutonium found by the Marines in those "hidden underground tunnels".

Or did their tritium night-sights peg the Geiger counter?

Don
 
1. They agreed not to, specifically.

As of now Iraq has not been proven to have broken this agreement (regardless of how it was obtained.)
Uhm...

Actually, they have been proven to have violated the armisitice. Missiles are limited to X miles and they were flying X+Y miles.

And I thought we were talking about why they should not have WMDs, not whether or not anything was proven thus far?
2. It violates a other treaties and conventions as well.

Which ones? Name one. I double-dog dare you.
Are they a signatory to the nuke non-proliferation treaty? Just off the cuff that would be one, if they're doing verbotten nuke research (again, not proven, but certainly there are hints to that effect)
3. Saddam is bat-**** wacko.
The US is the boy who cried wolf on this one how? Even if you take away all of the false leads, allegedly false accusations, etc etc etc, Saddam still has enough bodies in the ground to lend serious credence to this point. Someone starting a rumor about him that turned out to be false doesn't return gassed Kurdish villagers to life.

Mike
 
"Someone" starting a rumour about him that proved to be false? "Someone"?

This "someone" is the the United States government. You call it "starting a rumour that proved to false". I call it lying. Flat out lying.

The United States of America is not supposed to lie to its citizens, darn it. I'm not sure how much I can do about, but at least I can refuse to be a pawn.

Go to sleep, my friend, you're not at your best right now.
 
A. I'm not conceeding any points about the US lying re: Saddam and Iraq.

B. (and this was my main point) even IF all points re: lyingare conceeded to you, Saddam has still slaughtered enough people and engaged in enough barbarism all on his own that it still supports my point #3.

Mike
 
Hello Don.

ROFLMAO,

"OK, drjones. DRC requested I ask you if it was SEALED containers of low-grade uranium or "bomb-grade" plutonium found by the Marines in those "hidden underground tunnels".

Or did their tritium night-sights peg the Geiger counter?

Don"

That's a good one! You rock dude.

Seriously, DRC (that would be Me) didn't ask you to ask DrJones if the readings were being caused by low grade Uranium or bomb grade Plutonium found in the "hidden underground tunnels" DRC (again Me for those that might get confused) said

"Yup, I do know that. But I haven't seen where they've said this was SEALED low-grade Uranium not to mention UN Inspectors did not find or go into this area according to reports before or after the bombing. So inspectors couldn't have found something and sealed it if they were never therein the first place, but I'll do a little more looking."

The levels of radio activity are too high for them to go in and find out what is down there as of yet. So the way I figure it, and correct me if I'm wrong, if the military that's there in said location doesn't even know what's down there yet then I don't either. The reports say it will be later this or next week before they can get down there to find out so unless you're really good at seeing the future you don't know what they've found either. I'm not saying it's one or the other; what I'm saying and in fact said was I don't know what's down there causing the readings so I cannot speculate what it is until the authorities in that matter find out and release that information. It may be just a bunch of barrels of low-grade uranium from years gone by but since I'm not there doing the research nor can I see into the future or into underground bunkers from here I won't speculate.

SkunkApe,

I'm reading a very good book that you should read if you haven't already. It's by Mona Charen and the title is "Useful Idiots." No, that's not a dig against you (remember I'm reading it now) but it will definitely give you a perspective of things that will make you think about a lot of things in a way you never have before. I've always considered myself a conservative in my ideologies and never put much stock in anything liberally based anyway but after reading the first half of the book I can honestly say that your feelings are justified if you've only garnered a singular view point of the situation. To put it more bluntly, there's a lot that you may think you know but until the real truthes come out you're basing your feelings on skewed information. The book talks about the "Blame America First" crowd and the effect it's had on this country ever since. It's a good read and I recommend it if for no other reason than entertainment purposes.

"The United States of America is not supposed to lie to its citizens, darn it. I'm not sure how much I can do about, but at least I can refuse to be a pawn."

You're personifying the country so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. BUT for the sake of debate I'll assume that you are referring to the administration or the reporting entities. I'll assume specifically that you're referring to the administration. People in these positions get intelligence reports and then have to act on them in one way or another. Bush and his administration followed accepted protocol and got hammered for being a war monger the whole way. This administration gave Iraq time, gave the "Blame America First" crowds UN meetings and weapons inspectors and allowed votes to be made and new resolutions to be passed. When all of this failed this administration gave Iraq an ultimatum and acted on it (because somebody had to)

Are there WMD in Iraq? I have no clue as of yet but my assumption is "Yes" based on past knowledge of Saddams regime and what his aspirations were. Did Bush have enough information to substantiate his actions and assertions that Iraq had WMD? I believe he did.

Take care,

DRC
 
I've resisted telling you all this, so as to destroying your "fall-back" defense to my arguments, but here it is:

I'm not a "liberal".

Nope. Sorry. I voted for a grand total of one Democrat in my life (John Dingell, who, at the time, had an NRA "A" rating.)

I voted for Ronald Reagan twice. I voted for the George H.W. Bush (once).

I supported the "Contract with America" and cheered when the Republicans took over Congress.

I believe that pure unfettered capitalism is the greatest and most natural economic system possible.

I believe the Constitution of the United States represents the greatest words ever written.

I recent years, I've become a staunch Libertarian. But I still am disgusted by socialism and communism.

But still I know a liar when I see one, regardless of party. The truth still shines as brightly as it ever did, and the stench of propaganda is still as strong.

I know who lies, and who believe the lies.

And I recognize those who believe because their party tells them its true, and those who recognize that membership in a political party, or the profession of political beliefs, does not necessarily make one true and good and right.

Think, man, think.
 
SkunkApe...???

Um...I don't think anyone ever accused of of anything you've espoused, or perhaps I was absent when this happened.

As to who's lying and who's telling the truth? Well, we'll have to wait and see but I've never known anyone that had the ability to tell a liar at a glance. How does that work and where does one go to learn this technique? It sure would save me the time and trouble of having to go through all the facts and information if I could learn this as well. I'm a busy guy and spend an inardenant amount of time sifting through information and this would be a God send. Please let me know where I can sign up at your earliest convenience.

I can just see Me now.

Me "Sir! You are a liar!"
Them "But I didn't say anything."

And Me sitting looking smug knowing that I know the only truth in this situation because I can tell a liar at a glance without knowing them, or knowing what they know. It would make me feel warm and fuzzy knowing I was always right without question. I would be a god!

DRC
 
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The levels of radio activity are too high for them to go in and find out what is down there as of yet. So the way I figure it, and correct me if I'm wrong, if the military that's there in said location doesn't even know what's down there yet then I don't either.

Well thank-you, DRC! At least you are honest enough to admit you don't know what they found. I think they found a lot of Geiger ticking like you would expect to find in any old nuclear facility. Chernobyl is still dangerous even with the years passed and it's concrete overcoat.

No, I didn't seriously think the Marines mistook readings from their tritium sights. I just didn't understand how anyone could take such leap of logic to assume a wildly ticking Gieger would indicate weapons-grade plutonium. Evidently News Max did and forgot to withdraw their claim.

DRC, if you don't believe anything else I said, believe me on this one.....

If they found weapons-grade plutonium at Tuwaitha, it would have been front page news!

I encourage you to keep up your good sense of humor, even when we disagree!

Don
 
Thanks Don.

I try.

I do have to clarify a couple of things for you though because I'm not sure where you're getting your implications.

"Well thank-you, DRC! At least you are honest enough to admit you don't know what they found. I think they found a lot of Geiger ticking like you would expect to find in any old nuclear facility. Chernobyl is still dangerous even with the years passed and it's concrete overcoat."

First I must take issue with this (but not in a mean sort of way.) I am honest enough to admit that I don't know what they found which has been my contention this whole time. I also said that when the time came and the crews hired to go in found out what was down in the facility we would know for sure what was causing the high readings on the equipment. Then I asked why something radio active would be down there in an area that according to reports the UN Inspectors never went to (the reports could be wrong but we will have to wait for this as well) and in three different reports it states this. So my questions are thus:

The facility was bombed. The UN Inspectors (according to reports) were never in this section of the facility nor did they even know it existed so how they can assess that it's low-grade Uranium in SEALED barrels placed in a SEALED section of the building to contain the radio active emmisions is what I'm questioning. You have every right and should question those you feel are possibly not being forthright, but by that same token I'm doing the same. You question the US and its Administrations actions and reporting and I'll question the totalitarian regimes that broke every (I believe the final tally was 18) resolution the UN passed and kicked out inspectors all while rebuilding this very facility.

Sadly, you do not seem to be as honest in that you don't know what they found either. Only speculation from you which is, in and of itself, hypocracy :( Yup, it was a neclear facilty and there's radio active stuff around places like this I have no doubt, But what a great place to hide MORE radio active stuff. Think about it, hiding radio active stuff in or near a nuclear facility (functional or not) that inspectors have already been to regardless of whether they had been to the actual underground storage facility or not. I'm not saying that's what has been done but personally I can't think of a better hiding place not to mention if the Iraqis didn't think about this then they missed an opportunity and would appear less brilliant than we gave them credit for.

"DRC, if you don't believe anything else I said, believe me on this one.....

If they found weapons-grade plutonium at Tuwaitha, it would have been front page news!"

You're absolutely right but perhaps they haven't reported it because they haven't been able to enter the underground facility to find out what's down there yet What a concept! Not reporting what you don't know for a fact. That would mean the media showed responsibility which is uncommon (especially for News Max) but a welcome change. I trust the media very little but presently they're not really saying much when there's nothing much to tell, but when the story breaks (which it hasn't yet) they're all over it.

And finally I don't really think we disagree as much as you speculate one thing and I ask "How do you know when nothing definitive has been released yet?" We're on the same page I'm just refusing to speculate until I have more facts. If someone tells me a color pattern has red and blue in it I'm not going to jump up and say "It must be Plaid then." I just can't bring myself to do that regardless of whose in office or what's on the political table. If you feel comfortable with that (and you might be correct and I'm not saying otherwise) then be my guest but I'm not built that way. I'll wait for the proof one way or the other first.

Take care Don and thanks for the kind words. You too have been very cordial and I appreciate that.

DRC
 
I also said that when the time came and the crews hired to go in found out what was down in the facility we would know for sure what was causing the high readings on the equipment.

This time has already come and gone. The military experts found NOTHING! At least nothing that presented a "smoking gun".

Time frame: The Marines took control of the facility. Facility left abandoned...... then looted! Checked again by the US forces. Nothing found!

News Max silent! BUT........I'm sure they'll print a retraction soon! :rolleyes:

Don
 
But if you take out Saddam, who is going to take on the task of torturing the Iraqi's?? Do you know how hard it is to find a good dictator that will last more than 2 decades these days? :rolleyes:

I saw a sig line that made me laugh.. It said:

I love Saddam... in a breadbox!
 
Don, where were you during the Vietnam war?

Soda, let me just say I wasn't fighting a polyp on my neo-con anus to avoid the draft like Rush Limbaugh!

Don ;)
 
Um Don...???

I believe we're talking about two different places and instances.

The site I'm talking about is in Tuwaitha where offices have been looted but that's on top and was done some time ago. The military has been there and found a door breached to the underground facility as recently as April 10th and still have not been able to go into the area because of the high radiation levels and some infighting between the the administration and IAEA. I beleive you're talking about the facility in Bagdad found fairly early in the conflict that had high radiation levels that the offices had been looted prior to the military getting there.

I was watching Fox News Monday and they were talking about it and said they probably would not be able to send anyone in to the underground facility until late this week or later. Here's a link that talks about the Bagdad facility and the Tuwaitha facility in this vein. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,85940,00.html

Take care,

DRC
 
DRC, thanks for the Fox News article. But after reading it, I didn't see anything about them finding (or suspecting they'll find) weapons-grade plutonium like the News Max article stated.

But the IAEA said Iraq was allowed to keep several tons of low-grade uranium and other nuclear material there under seal because the material couldn't be used directly for weapons.

The above is is taken from the Fox article and is what the Marines found.

The reason there's a big fuss over Tuwaitha right now, is because the US allowed it to be looted.

Wasn't the PRIMARY REASON for invading Iraq to find and sieze any WMDs? While they didn't find any WMDs at Tuwaitha (or any other place in Iraq yet), there was a lot of stuff that should have been secured in that facility.

Six or seven other facilities associeted with Iraqs former nuclear program have also been looted.

Don
 
Don...

"DRC, thanks for the Fox News article. But after reading it, I didn't see anything about them finding (or suspecting they'll find) weapons-grade plutonium like the News Max article stated."

I don't think I'm going to be able to explain this to you in a manner that you can comprehend but I'll try it one last time just to hopefully help you understand what I (Me personally) said.

1) The location you're talking about is not the same location I'm talking about.

2) The location (Tuwaitha) has been visited by inspectors many times, but (according to reports) they were never in these underground facilities (read-never allowed)

3) The remainder of the buildings on the surface were looted and it is suspected that someone may have gone down into the facility since the military found a sealed door breached when they arrived on the scene. What they fear is that material "may" have been removed but since they have no record of what was down there to begin with they don't and probably won't know what-if anything-is missing.

4) The radioactive levels are "unusually high" near the door according to reports and especially in some small "mechanical buildings." So much so that perimeters have been set and decontamination has been necessary.

5) I never said there was plutonium, uranium, aluminum or even the Easter Bunny down in the tunnels. I have said over and over again that they have not been able to go down into this underground facility because the radiation levels are too high for humans regardless of the cause for this.

6) Lowgrade Uranium? Spent fuel? Plutonium? Left overs from a really bad facility cook? I have no idea what's down there, you have no idea what's down there and the military, at present, has no idea what's down there.

As I said before, it would be a missed opportunity for the Iraqis if they didn't take advantage of this area for storage of any weapons grade radioactive material. Never once did I say they had it hidden down there, never once did I say WMD are down there, nor did I ever say that what's down there isn't allowable components left over from days gone by. I said "I have no idea what's down in this area and no one else knows for sure either until they are able to go down into the underground facility."

What we know is radiation levels are "unusually high" (I would assume that this means the levels are outside off what would be considered ordinary for the components that are known to be there) And no one has been allowed down into these areas to determine what's causing the levels of radioactivity. The rest is speculation only at this point. I'll be intrested to know what they find primarily because of the Inspectors lack of access to this part of the facility and to see if there had been any new construction going on.

I'll say this again too:

Did Bush lie about WMD? No.
Will we find WMD? Yes.

I'll refrain from speculations that are unfounded and stick with the facts as they unfold.

Thank you for reading and I hope this clears things up a bit.

DRC
 
I have no idea what's down there, you have no idea what's down there and the military, at present, has no idea what's down there.

OK, DRC! You don't know what they found down there. I don't either. But when they don't find anything scary and forbidden down there, there will be complete silence about this "big find".

No news means another false positive.

Don
 
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