Anyone try a STG44?
 

Has anyone here ever held, or maybe even fired a STG44? I think it would be cool to try the one that "started it all".

I've only fired 1 shot out of it, but the collection at work (forensic laboratory) has one; surprisingly ergonomic in most respects (considering that it's all stamped steel), but they designed it with the safety separate from the selector. The safety is in the same place you'd find it on the H&K series, but the selector is a cross-bolt above the safety, with one side marked "E" ("ein" or "one") and the other marked "D" (dauer" or "rapid").

I got to put a couple of magazines through one a few years back. Very good weapon for its time. Never jammed, was reasonably accurate at 200 yards. I don't see a problem with having the selector seperate from the safety. Makes it harder to untentionally go full auto and break fire disipline.

SDC:

That's fascinating. Is it possible they'd let you get some high-res photos of the gun to share? Heck, you could even snap some film shots of it and I'd scan. I'm a JPEG packrat.

Sure, I'll take some snaps on Monday :)

This soldier shot one.....in Iraq
 

An Army diver, in Iraq. Interesting job, and nice pics.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=71138


Bart Noir

It said in that article that the ammo was manufactured in 1961...does 7.92 Kurz have a popular following in Europe?

No, but many countries were given surplus STG44's after the war. It can still be found worldwide in numerous places and is probably still chugging along in somebody's arsenal. That's one of those things that's impossible to track. Making the ammo is a simple matter. I don't imagine it gets used much, though.

I shot 3 magazines through one about 5 years ago. Very controllabe. I liked the gun better than the AK due to ergonomics.

I understand that production of these arms began in mid 1944, correct? How many were produced? How many were fielded? Was production continued after the war? Does anyone know of some GIs opinions on these rifles?

This is from 'Assault Rifle', a new book I have written with Max Popenker (who owns the guns.ru site):

"In 1939 HWaA issued a contract for the development of a "Maschinenkarabiner", or machine carbine (MKb for short), chambered for the new Kurz cartridge, to the company C. G. Haenel Waffen und Fahrradfabrik. Initial development took place under the designation of MKb.42 - Maschinenkarabiner, 1942. The new weapon was intended as a replacement for submachine guns, bolt action rifles and, partly, light machineguns for front troops and was intended to have an effective range of 600 metres or so.

The famous designer Hugo Schmeisser led the Haenel development team, which produced the first working prototypes of new weapon by 1942. In accordance with the specification, the new weapon inherited several features from MP-40 submachine gun, such as the left-side charging handle with slot safety and magazine housing with button release. Because the new weapon had to be made with the maximum usage of stamping and welding, Haenel was joined by the Merz Werke, a company with no knowledge in firearms but a great deal of experience in steel stamping and forming. The first weapons were issued to front line units on the Eastern front by the mid-1942, and the low-rate mass production began in late 1942. A total of about 10,000 MKb.42(H) were produced for the German Army before its production was ceased in favour of an improved design, the MP-43.

In 1940 another company joined in the development of this new type of small arm; the famous German arms manufacturing company Carl Walther, known for its fine and popular pistols. Walther had already been engaged in the development of intermediate-cartridge firearms since 1936, when it produced self-loading carbines for an experimental 7 x 39 cartridge. Later, Walther developed several automatic designs in "full-size" 7.92 x 57, and one of these experimental prototypes, the 7.92 mm A-115, served as a starting point for its 7.92 mm Kurz rifle. Walther began to develop its own Maschinenkarabiner as a private venture, but in 1941 received official approval from HWaA for further development in competition with Haenel, the first MKb.42(W) rifles being delivered to the army in the second half of 1942.

In late 1942, the first small batches of both Haenel and Walther weapons, designated MKb.42(H) and MKb.42(W) respectively, were sent to the Eastern front, for trials against Soviet troops. Initial results were promising, with the Haenel rifles being generally preferred due to their better reliability. The Walther design, which showed better single-shot accuracy, was rejected as unsuitable on the grounds of its questionable annular gas piston system. No further development in this field was apparently taken by the Walther organization, which was already very busy delivering its P.38 pistols to the German army.

HWaA asked Haenel for several significant improvements over their initial design. Most notable was the request to replace the submachine-gun like open-bolt firing system with more convenient closed-bolt system, to improve single-shot accuracy. Schmeisser redesigned the weapon accordingly, and by 1943 submitted the improved version to the HWaA. But by this time Hitler had ordered that only existing types should be developed and manufactured, and the Maschinenkarabiner was not on this list. To avoid this nuisance, the Germans decided simply to rename the MKb to the MP, or Machinenpistole (submachine gun), which was on the “approved” list. So, the new and improved weapon received the designation MP-43, and went into limited production and field trials at the front. During the following year, the MP-43 experienced several minor modifications, leading to MP-43/1 and MP-43/2 designations, but these differed only in details such front sight bases and grenade launcher interfaces.

In April 1944 the designation of all MP-43s was changed to MP-44, with no actual changes made to the design. At this time there were plenty of glowing reports from the German troops fighting with MP-43s and MP-44s at the Eastern front. Seeing these reports, Hitler finally approved the mass production and issue of the new “wunderwaffe”, and in December officially christened it the Sturmgewehr, or Assault Rifle, 1944 (StG.44) This was a pure act of propaganda, but the name stuck not only to that gun, but also to the whole new class of automatic weapons designed to fire intermediate cartridges.

The total number of MP-43s, MP-44s and StG.44s produced was about 450,000, and these guns proved very effective, but not without some flaws. After the end of the war the direct development of the Stg.44 was stopped, but the East German police used some remaining guns. Another major post-war user of Stg.44 was Yugoslavia; their paratroopers used it under the designation "Automat, padobranski, 7.9 mm M44, nemacki" until the early 1980s, when the Kalashnikov-type M64 and M70 rifles finally replaced it. Yugoslavia also produced 7.92 x 33 Kurz ammunition until the late 1970s. An amusing side note is that several Stg.44, captured by the Soviet Army and converted to fire blank cartridges, were used until the late 1980s by several major Soviet movie studios to imitate various “weapons of imperialism”, including the American M16. In the latter case, the crude camouflage consisted of a carrying handle, semi-permanently attached to the top of the receiver."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

Here's a couple of pics of the one we've got: Haenel manufacture (fxo code), dated 1945, but marked as an "MP44", s/n 8190n
L. side overall

R. side overall.

L. side receiver closeup.

R. side receiver closeup.

Stripped view; you'll note that these rifles use a "tipping bolt" to lock, which I'd think would be a whole lot easier to manufacture than the rotating bolt on the AK. (?)

It looks like those handguards would get toasty during rapid firing...what are the ballistics of the 7.92 Kurz round? All I know is that it is 7.92mm bullet at 2200 FPS, anyone know the bullet weight? Would an equivelent to this be a 7.62x39mm?

SDC,

You are THE MAN!!!!!

Thank you very much for the pictures.

-Pat

Natedog, my books show the 7.92 Kurz as having a 125-grain bullet at 2296 fps, while the 7.62x39mm ("PS"/steel-core) has a 123-grain bullet at 2330 fps. Here's a shot showing (L-R) a full-size 7.92x57 B-Patrone explosive-incendiary/spotter, an SmK Leuchtspur (AP-tracer), a 7.62x39mm PS ball, and the 7.92x33mm Kurz. If you'd like some better shots of the rifle (or anything else I can help out with; we DO have one of the EM2 Canadian prototypes in 7mm NATO here :-)); just let me know.

Thank you. I am very grateful. Where is the museam you work at? I would like to visit it sometime!

Not really a "museum" (though I sometimes like to think of it that way :) ) but a forensic laboratory; I work at the RCMP's Ottawa lab as a firearms technologist. (And no, before you ask, I don't work with any hot women like in "CSI" :) )

OUTSTANDING SHOTS of the StG... Thanks. I'd almost move to French Canada for a job like that? So, when you and your coworkers are talking about crime 'stuff' are there cool computer-generated flashbacks going through your heads like it shows in CSI Miami, CSI Boston, CSI Boisie, CSI Oxnard, etc.?

:D I sometimes WISH it was that easy (hell, I wish they'd give us these $35,000 cars to tool around in too), but I think the only thing CSI has done for the profession is give people an unrealistic expectation of what's possible.

Amazing pictures, I haven't seen any like it in such closeup pictures.

The StG44 looks surprisingly like just what it is. From this weapon, the concept of the "Assault Rifle" was born. This concept holds that a rifle should be effective out to 300 yards and anything above that is icing. To accomplish this, weapons should fire an intermediate-power (when compared to the 30-06, 303 British, 8mm Mauser, etc.) cartridge with select-fire capability in a shorter, carbine-sized weapon. This weapon serves much the same purpose as the battle rifle, submachinegun, traditional carbine and takes the place of some functions of the automatic rifle and light machinegun.

Design-wise, the StG44 clearly served as the basis for two pivotal weapons. The first, the AK47, is highly derivative of the AK-47. Despite being a new design, it didn't introduce any new concepts. What it did was simplify existing designs and concepts into a workable compromise weapon. Those concepts are the Garand Bolt and Trigger, the StG 44 gas system, stamped construction, layout, bolt carrier, magazine, sight block, gas block, etc. The final concept is the Russian tennants of weapons construction with loose fitting parts and reduced tolerances for greater interchangeabliltiy and economy of production.

The second weapon inspired by the StG44 was the HK G3 series. That weapon series incorporated the 'peanut' cross-section of the StG44 receiver as well as the trigger group... well, looking at the two side by side much of the other inspiration is obvious. The G3 combined these attributes with the excellent roller-locking mechanism of the MG42.

In spite of everybody borrowing and stealing from the StG44, this is an outstanding weapon in its own right. Criticism focuses on its weight. While heavy, this weight helps with controlability to a great degree. Lightweight weapons are harder to control.