How Practical is a Single-Action for CCW?

[Murdock]

Wasn't it Jeff Cooper who said "If you can't solve the problem with six shots you probably can't solve the problem". Or something like that.

Yes, Cooper probably did say or write something close to that. He also wrote this:

From Cooper on Handguns by Jeff Cooper, 1974:

"The Peacemaker was most definitely a service pistol in its day, but that day is past. Now it is purely a sporting weapon -- a plaything. Not that, in proper calibers, it cannot serve to stop an argument as well as it ever did, but it is no longer the first choice for that task. One can still sail across the Atlantic, but that is not what we do if merely crossing the Atlantic is our object. Likewise, we can still wear a Peacemaker for personal protection, but it is not a particularly good idea...I actually carried it in the early days of the Pacific action (on the advice of a still-active gun writer whose honesty I have reason to question) until I found out the hard way that the U.S. ordnance department knew more about the subject of fighting handguns than many people." (p. 157)

And:

".. I cannot deny that I am no great admirer of the Peacemaker, and this is not simply because I was frightened by one (my own) when I was a very junior officer. Trying to reload that relic quickly, in the dark, in the rain, in the mud, was a task I grew very tired of in one quick session." (p.158).

[shu]

For years my main load in the Colt look-a-likes for the 45, was 18+ grains of Herc 2400 under the Keith 260 grain cast bullet.

Yes, the Original Vaquero maybe, which looks like the Colt but is considerably stouter built and heavier.

In even a modern built weapon, with modern steel, the dimensions of the original colt, with that load you're getting into the territory of "Hold my beer and watch this."

With a pressure limit of 14,000 psi, the 45Colt is speced even below the 38spl (17,000 psi).

Speer #13 reloading manual gives 15.4 gr as the max load of 2400 for a 250 gr swaged bullet - altho this may be to hold the velocity down to 1000 fps to avoid leading from the softer aloy.

18.0 gr of 2400 is listed as the max for a 260 gr jacketed bullet - in the RUGER AND CONTENDER ONLY pages.

My Lyman manual lists no loads for 2400 in 45Colt.

I love my NewVaq 45Colt, but I want to keep the peacemaker in one piece.

2400, a slow burning powder, is suited for high pressure and heavy bullets. Truth be known, I have not used 2400 in anything. Been wanting to try it, but it's suitability is on the fringes of what I normally shoot. Maybe now that I have finished off the bottle of H110 I use for "concussion" 357mag loads in the GP100...

[Murdock]

Yup. Fast alright. From a funky speed holster, looking at the holster and warming up with a few quick practice moves, no target, with no apparent interest in hitting anything, just getting the gun out to make noise, and starting with the hand on the gun.

But I stand by my original statement. While the SA may be incredibly fast in some hands, it does not follow that it is faster than anything else. Ed McGivern placed 5 rounds of .38 Special into a playing card in 3/5 of a second with a DA revolver. Exceptional men will attain exceptional results, given enough effort.

In A CCW role, even if speed of the first shot was a primary consideration, the SA has no relative advantages, and only disadvantages.

Do yourselves a favor, SA guys. Attend a local falling plate event, or IDPA event, and see how competitive you are against people with DAs and autos.

[zxcvbob]

In even a modern built weapon, with modern steel, the dimensions of the original colt, with that load you're getting into the territory of "Hold my beer and watch this." With a pressure limit of 14,000 psi, the 45Colt is speced even below the 38spl (17,000 psi).

Speer #13 reloading manual gives 15.4 gr as the max load of 2400 for a 250 gr swaged bullet - altho this may be to hold the velocity down to 1000 fps to avoid leading from the softer aloy. 18.0 gr of 2400 is listed as the max for a 260 gr jacketed bullet - in the RUGER AND CONTENDER ONLY pages. My Lyman manual lists no loads for 2400 in 45Colt. I love my NewVaq 45Colt, but I want to keep the peacemaker in one piece.

18+ grains of 2400 with a 260 grain "Kieth" bullet is not as bad as it sounds. Those bullets have a wide flat nose, so much of the bullet weight is outside the case (means the bullet is not seated very deep.) 18.5 grains of 2400 with a 260 grain bullet, assuming a .35" seating depth (caution, I may be way off with this guestimate) gives a pressure of about 21.1 kpsi according to Quickload. Probably OK in a modern steel gun -- although those cylinder walls are awfully thin. If the seating depth were .45" with the same bullet, the pressure goes up to 27.6 kpsi, which is about the limit of what I'd shoot in my Ruger Bisley-Blackhawk (I try to keep it under 25 kpsi)

[mavracer]

Roger A. Waters's The Best Defense has a writeup of an incident where an elderly gentleman engaged in a running gun battle with 3 would-be cop killers in which he fired over 40 shots from his 9mm. So yes, it can happen; its not the likeliest event, but if we were all concerned with what was most likely then no one would be carrying at all.

I'm wondering do you think he would have been better served with a SAA knowing he only has 6,I'm pretty sure I can get three hits with a single shot faster than you can get off 40 rounds concidering we'll likely both have to reload twice.

[mavracer]

Yup. Fast alright. From a funky speed holster, looking at the holster and warming up with a few quick practice moves, no target, with no apparent interest in hitting anything, just getting the gun out to make noise, and starting with the hand on the gun.

keep watching he can hit a target

In A CCW role, even if speed of the first shot was a primary consideration, the SA has no relative advantages, and only disadvantages.

power and accuracy are disadvantages now, maybe in your world.

Do yourselves a favor, SA guys. Attend a local falling plate event, or IDPA event, and see how competitive you are against people with DAs and autos.

once again the thread veer tactic we are talking SD.nice try

[zxcvbob]

Do yourselves a favor, SA guys. Attend a local falling plate event, or IDPA event, and see how competitive you are against people with DAs and autos.

OK, I gotta brag. Last summer our Bullseye league had a bowling pin shoot at one of the members place out in the country. I brought my BHP along, but mostly I was shooting my Bisley-Blackhawk and I was having an unusually good day. Ridiculous even. IIRC, I was shooting 200 grain cast bullets with 8.0 grains of Red Dot.

We had two tables set up with 5 pins each, and 2 shooters would go to the line and shoot one-at-a-time against a clock. As the afternoon wore on, this degenerated into 2 shooter at the line shooting against each other with no clock (this was a lot more fun.) The last round, I got up there with my 6-shooter, and I thought Larry (the host, and an experienced pin shooter) was going to use his S&W 29 with .44 Specials. Instead he got out a full-sized Glock 9mm. I figured I was gonna get my butt handed to me. The buzzer went off and I cleared my 5 pins with 5 shots, and I noticed that Larry had missed his first pin and hadn't gotten back to it yet. So I picked it off for him with my last round.

I know it's not the same as drawing from a holster, thumbing the hammer, and getting off several aimed shots, but still...

[Murdock]

It's a free country. Use whatever you want, and enjoy. I keep forgetting this is a hobbyist forum, and I'm obviously taking this way too seriously.

[Cave Dweller]

If I may offer a boost th the sa crowd, I might suggest investing in a nice black powder revolver. Cheaper shooting, and, in a shtf situation, you can cast your own bullets from captured ammo.

[Vern Humphrey]

Where you gonna get the blackpowder? And wouldn't it just be cheaper to have a weapon in the enemy's caliber and use his ammo without all the trouble of melting bullets -- that you probably can't melt, anyway, since he will be using steel cores or more sophisticated armor-piercing ammo.

[JesseL]

I wouldn't bother with a single action for CCW.

Open carry is another story



It's really not ideal for social situations and I prefer it for hunting and hiking, but it's hard to argue with six rounds of .41 magnum and that first shot can be very fast.

[Jamie C.]

I've carried a SAA before and no doubt will again. But then, I know how to use it and am comfortable with it.

As for the advantage of speed loaders/strips in a DA revolver... ever tried using 'em under pressure? My experience is that most people are too busy loading their shorts, when the bullets start flying, to effectively manage reloading their guns. So in that regard, "Joe Average" isn't going to have a much easier time with one system or the other.


No, a SAA isn't for everybody, but there are some people who can use them quite effectively.


J.C.

[zxcvbob]

As for the advantage of speed loaders/strips in a DA revolver... ever tried using 'em under pressure? My experience is that most people are too busy loading their shorts, when the bullets start flying, to effectively manage reloading their guns. So in that regard, "Joe Average" isn't going to have a much easier time with one system or the other.

I'm left-handed, so if I had to reload a DA revolver under fire, I'm screwed anyway. And I can't hit anything with a semiauto. I don't carry a gun, but if I did it would probably be my S&W model 15. But I shoot a single-action just as fast (it's just that my favorite SA has a 7.5" barrel.)

[Vern Humphrey]

As for the advantage of speed loaders/strips in a DA revolver... ever tried using 'em under pressure? My experience is that most people are too busy loading their shorts, when the bullets start flying, to effectively manage reloading their guns.

You have a very good point there. As I have said, I have zero experience actually shooting someone in a self-defense situation, and I am not a cop. All my experience has been in combat.

If that counts for anything, expect a 90% performance degradation in an actual shootout. Which translates into not being able to manipulate speed loaders or speed strips very well under stress.

That said, why adopt a handicap at the outset? That's part of the thinking that leads me to choose the M1911, in a gun I have proven to be utterly reliable.

[JesseL]

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

I'm left-handed, so if I had to reload a DA revolver under fire, I'm screwed anyway.

I never though about it, but that's probably my reason for not feeling too handicapped by a single action as well.

All the juggling it takes for a southpaw to reload a double action revolver is ridiculous.

[Owlnmole]

I think these southpaw comments merit a bump for my earlier suggestion of that other single action revolver, the S&W Model 3 Schofield top break (or a replica). Every lefty should should have one!

[Vern Humphrey]

I think these southpaw comments merit a bump for my earlier suggestion of that other single action revolver, the S&W Model 3 Schofield top break (or a replica). Every lefty should should have one!

Actually, there is a theory that the SAA is left-handed -- Sam Colt was a lefty. There are even "right handed" versions available nowadays, I understand.

BTW, when operating a break-action revolver, muzzle goes up when ejecting the empties, so a case can't fall down back into the chamber under the ejector star and tie the gun up.

[neededausername]

If you carrying for SD on horse back I've read that SA is better. Most horses aren't used to gunfire and will buck at the sound, or will buck if the see a snake etc. A SA will not discharge without the hammer cocked. I realize this is a limited circumstance, but adding my .02 cents.

[MrBorland]

Actually, there is a theory that the SAA is left-handed -- Sam Colt was a lefty.

psssst...Vern....Sam Colt died 11 years before the Colt SAA came on the scene. The SAA was actually designed by Colt engineer William Mason.

[Vern Humphrey]

psssst...Vern....Sam Colt died 11 years before the Colt SAA came on the scene. The SAA was actually designed by Colt engineer William Mason.

Yup -- but it follows Colt's original layout -- in the cap-and-ball revolvers, the caps were inserted via a groove in the right recoil shield. And that's where the loading gate is on the SAA.

Most horses aren't used to gunfire and will buck at the sound, or will buck if the see a snake etc.

If your horse isn't trained to stand still to gunfire, don't carry a gun while riding that horse!

[Commander Crusty]

I say carry a single action revolver, if that's what you like to shoot the most (and shoot the best with), but do what the old timers did and carry a backup derringer too.

[mavracer]

I say carry a single action revolver, if that's what you like to shoot the most (and shoot the best with), but do what the old timers did and carry a backup derringer too.

gotcha boss

[Darkness]

I know this would be a more expensive option, but wouldn't it be reasonable to speed up reloads by carrying an extra SA cylinder loaded up? Could carry it in a pouch just like a speedloader. I have not had the opportunity to check it out, but I can't imagine changing the cylinder on a single action to be that much slower than using a speed strip.

Heck, my Blackhawk is the 4 5/8" version and my base pin doesn't come all the way out, it's stopped by the ejector rod, so there is no chance of fumbling and dropping it. Just flip open the gate, slide the pin, drop the cylinder, put the new one in, slide the pin back, wiggle if needed, close the gate and you're ready to go. Would it really be much slower than swinging out a cylinder, ejecting the shells, lining up the speed strip, stripping off two rounds, rotating the cylinger, stripping another two rounds, rotating the cylinder, stripping off the last one or two rounds, then closing the cylinder to be ready?

I am just thinking that a single action with a spare cylinder might be at least as fast to reload as a DA revolver with speed strips.

[StrawHat]

A SA will not discharge without the hammer cocked.

Only if it is loaded with 5 in the cylinder and the hammer on the empty chamber.

With the hammer on a cartridge, a solid blow to the hammer spur, will produce a gunshot.

I am talking about Colt Model Ps and clones.

As for SD use, if it is something with which you have practiced to the point of complete comfort, yes.

If not, keep practicing.

[Erik]

I think he was referring to the horse jolting, causing the shooter to discharge the gun; something difficult to accomplish with the hammer down on a single action revolver. Though I'm sure someone will want to debate that point, too.

Look, three pages later it seems some folks are still confusing "practical" with "viable." In both instances, the definitions *for most shooters* are being stretched.