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Old July 8, 2009, 02:12 AM   #1
AussieTH
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'unnofficial Walker/Dragoon LRE club

‘UNOFFICIAL’ THR WALKER/DRAGOON (LRE) LONG RANGE EXPRESS CLUB.

Warning – big post. Bring coffee, sandwiches and a tent!

I am taking a leaf from Scrat’s preceeding work but do not have his contacts so will probably be treading on toes here or there. Never mind – it is in a good cause!

What (in my opinon) Scrat really did was demonstrate that there can be an extreme interest group (Walkers) within what in what is already a specialised interest group (Black Powder forums). His success is measured by the nearly 2,000 posts and 60,000 views that those posts have had.

Can we do something similar in another even more focalised area? I say WE because this could fall flat on it’s face if people are not interested and do not participate! It depends entirely on what you Guys and Gals want to see on the forums, what you are interested in etc.

I just about haunt these forums so you can be assured that answers will be forthcoming promptly.

THE ‘SUB CLUBS’ INVOLVED.

There is proposed to be two – the LRE club (membership presently not open for practical reasons – please see below. And the Colt Dragoon Club – membership currently open.

WHAT THE LRE IS ALL ABOUT.

LRE stands for Long Range Express. This was originally a concept fielded by TMC4232 on the Walker club thread. He produced a photoshop concept image of a Walker with an 18” ‘Buntline’ barrel fitted to it. Replies to the concept indicated an interest in also affixing a detachable shoulder stock (as Colt did later with the 3rd Model Dragoon, the 1860 Army, the 1851 Navy and even some of the quite small 1861 and 1862 pockets. All rigged up this would turn the Walker into a carbine with a lot more long range accuracy and a lot more manageable for the average shooter.

I was taken with the concept and decided to build at least one. This did not seem too much of a drama at the initial time. I expressed my interest on the forums and others offered both their interest and in some cases their support.

THE DRAGOON CLUB.

This has been bandied about a bit on the forums with members asking for one to be set up in it’s own right. In fact there is already a ‘de facto’ one along with Scrat’s Walker club. Many owners of Walkers also own Dragoons thus using the Walker thread to get contact.

So we can launch that straight away? Personally I know little about the Dragoons other than superficially that there were four different models of them – Whitneyville, 1st model, 2nd model and 3rd model. So I need some volunteers to step forward to answer some of the technical points that will doubtless come out!

DRAGOON CLUB MEMBERSHIP.

Nearly totally informal and I am adopting Scrat’s method. Ie I will keep a master list of members in numerical order of joining that I will post updates of periodically. To join you need to own a Dragoon and must post an image of YOUR Dragoon plus any interesting data etc that you wish to tell everyone about along with your application to join.

Please include the manufacturer – eg Colt original (plus your address so that we can come around and rob you )! Colt 2nd Gen, Signature series, Uberti, ASM, Pietta etc etc. Including the serial number would be handy too, plus the model number but that should be obvious from the image anyway if you are unsure.

Please note: I would like to keep this exclusively to Dragoons, but can relax a bit if people so wish. For example – some of the early repro Walkers were named Walker Dragoons and even Whitneyville Walker Dragoon – I do not see these as being actual Dragoons.

I am kicking us off with the start of a membership list. If you are already on it and do not wish to be then just say so and you can be removed.

DRAGOON CODING.

There are a number of varieties of these guns so I am going to code for more complete identification:

COLT Orig 1st Gen. An original period Colt Dragoon.
COLT 2nd Gen. A second generation issue when Colt began re-manufacturing them.
COLT 3rd Gen. Also known as the ‘Signature Series’
WHITNEYVILLE. The ‘Transition Walker’ assembled from partly Walker and partly Dragoon parts.
1st model. A Dragoon with a loading lever front latch, oval cylinder bolt holes and square back trigger guard (a rare find is one with round trigger guard and there is at least one of these on the forum.
2nd model. A Dragoon with a loading lever front latch, oblong cylinder bolt holes and square back trigger guard
3rd model. A Dragoon with a loading lever front latch. Oblong cylinder bolt holes and a round trigger guard.
UB – a Uberti manufactured repro gun.
Pietta – a Pietta manufactured repro gun.
ASM – an Armi San Marco manufactured repro gun.
(any others then please post!)
Sr No. The serial number of the gun.
M/Sr Nos. A gun with a full compliment of matching serial numbers of it’s components.
PRES/COMM. A Presentation or Commemorative edition – usually limited numbers made. Please indicate the serial number of the gun in the limited edition run (eg – 25/200, the 25th gun in a series of 200 total issues)
CASED. The gun is cased in a presentation box (usually with accessories/tools etc). These will normally be limited edition weapons. High standard owner made cases are acceptable for this.
HIST. The gun has full documented history of its pedigree.
You may also add brief comment on any other unusual features of the weapon. Eg custom grips etc.
ENGRAV. The gun is decoratively engraved (beyond that normally done – eg serial numbers, manufacturer, patent or standard cylinder roll engraving).

MEMBERSHIP LISTING – THR ‘UNOFFICIAL’ COLT DRAGOON CLUB.

NB: I am including forum members who I either know to have Draggies (or damn well should have) and if they do not want to be here then please just say so. If you do then PM me details and email a pic and I will edit/post inserts for you. If you are named here then take it as acknowledgement for your forum contribution and as an invite!

#1 AussieTH. UB 3rd model, M/Sr Nos. A72064. A standard production Uberti but fully cut for shoulder stock. (not a good image but the best that I can do at the moment).

#2. Scrat.

#3. Das Jaeger.

#4 sltm1.

#5 Arcticap

#6 TMC4232

#7 Big Bad Gun. (part of the team anyway)

#8 Smoking Gun.

#9 Mad Crate Builder.

#10 Noble Sniper.

# 11 Gentleman of the Charcoal (See not everyone hates you GOTC)

# 12. Old Fuff. Need your expertise mate!

#13. Ginormouse. (Because he just HAS to be part of this!!!)


LRE CLUB – INITIAL DATA.

Not much I can put down but actually quite a bit as we have been at it for a while now. We do have a team for the project and are already well underway. But there were hiccups.

In essence the LRE project is to take a Walker, put an extended ‘Buntline’ Barrel on it, cut it to take a detachable shoulder stock – then off you go. So we have a number of components. Possibly the most significant component is that nobody can really join because there are no LREs so it is a bit difficult to post an image first. But actually there ARE some LREs already.

LRE IMAGES & BACKGROUND.

Once we launched the project some ‘challenges’ were encountered! We refuse to have ‘problems’ – only ‘challenges’!!!!

THE BASE GUN & KIT. This was intended as the Uberti Repro Walker as they are reasonably common, are likely to be around for a long while, parts are available easily. That was mistaken thinking in a broader sense and it was my own fault for not knowing enough – or more specifically for not doing enough research. I had assumed that all of the repros from various manufacturers would be replications of the Walker.

The LRE concept comes down to a kit, so the thinking was that if you had a Walker (virtually any ‘Walker’ then you could convert it into an LRE affordably (but I emphasis that at this time there is no intention of going into some form of business – at least not yet anyway). But if a Uberti model LRE conversion parts will not fit an ASM etc then we are inviting problems that we do not want and neither does the new owner. This has all got to work smoothly first time around – for everyone.

This area is currently being worked on and I am buying a variety of Walkers and Dragoons as LRE stock for examination and prototype work-ups. The end product is intended as a conversion kit that will up-date any Walker into a carbine.

‘BUNTLINE BARRELS’. The decision has been made to go to 18” barrels. This is going to make any normal Walker very much heavier than it already is! These will be made in Australia and I have a top gunsmith lined up to do the work. They will be top quality barrels so will not be cheap. None of us are in the market for something that ‘looks nice’ but will not last. The barrels will be exported to the States for assembly into LRE kits.

STOCKS. This initially seemed a simple exercise but was not. Detachable stocks are commonly available retail. However, The Walkers and Dragoons are much broader across the shoulders than their smaller following models (1851 Navy and 1860 Army) so the retail Stocks are too narrow to be put on a Walker or Dragoon! That is not the end of the world – but it is bloody infuriating when Uberti make Dragoons that are already cut for stocks but no longer sell the stocks that fit. No matter, we have latched onto a supply of brand new defective stocks that we are able to convert (see below).

Sltm1 has already made the waxes for the stock adaptors and has sent me images of this. Perhaps he will be so kind as to add a post with images below and anything else that he wishes to add. He is a top guy.

IMAGES & EXISTING LREs.

Unfortunately I have none that I can post (yet) but there are actually existing LREs!

To the LRE team’s surprise just what we were intending came up on Gunbroker. Big barrel, Walker pistol, and fitted stock. Lovely. We hurriedly assembled to buy it and by misfortune missed out – it could have been had for only USD1,000. I am still spitting chips about that! Never mind you stay on making positives – not weeping over losses!

Within two weeks another came up on these forums! It was only and image but was exactly the same project but rendered in a 3rd model Dragoon and looked lovely. The person who posted the image failed to respond to pleas as to where this gun may be or where the image came from. It will be tracked down eventually!!!!

From those a decision has been made that the Walker LRE project will also encompass the Dragoons as well. More – we may well toy with 1860 Army and 1861/1862 Navy versions. Not too sure about the latter as the long barrels would be expensive to make really well.

IMAGE LIST.

I cannot post images yet but these are what they will be and I will edit them in later. For those who are impatient then go to the ‘Official’ THR Walker club and scroll back down to pages 46 and 49 where this all started from (or thereabouts):

1. Standard Uberti repro Walker.

2. As above but enlarged with a ‘Buntline’ 18” barrel (image courtesy of a concept by TMC4232)

3. As above but enlarged further with addition of a detachable shoulder stock to make the full LRE carbine version (Image also courtesy of TMC4232).

4. Example of a detachable shoulder stock showing most of the fittings.

So that you are currently not disappointed you may view the originals by returning to the main forum Walker club and scroll back to pages

WORK IN PROGRESS.

CUSTOM BARRELS. These are already to go as soon as I have some guns free for the gunsmith to measure up (this is about getting over Aussie gun regulation) I am having a Uberti Walker and Uberti 3rd mod. Dragoon done first. Then probably an 1860 Army.

STOCKS. This has been a hassle because the horse pistol stocks are no longer made and the adaptor housings on the 1851 and 1860 models are too narrow for the bigger guns. However sltm1 had already made waxes from which the moulds can be made to fit the larger guns and also be fitted to current stocks available retail!

The adaptor housing is the really important part as it has to fit securely with large weapons. Sltm1 had redesigned the Colt original such that the recoil shield on the revolver does not have to be machined to take the stock. We will be supplying templates for drilling the frames so all you will have to do is fit four large lug screws, clip on the stock and off you go! These new adaptors will be cast in brass or maybe steel.

THE LRE TEAM.

There are a number of us (note that you should read posts carefully – all of these people read into what was said and made openings for themselves by asking):

Myself (AussieTH) but I am mainly around for steerage, funds provision and driving everyone else mad as a result plus the long custom barrel supply!

Sltm1. Roland is looking after the stock production. Sltm1 is an experienced artisan in making accurate moulds and that is already coming along well.

TMC4232. As the original concept organiser he will be getting a prototype for test firing and general use research.

Articap. Steve has been a boon to myself for other gun reasons and will also be invited in for prototype evaluation.

A. N. Other. Name withheld at the moment as he is still being courted. But potentially could bring a huge dimension into the LRE project.

Big Bad Gun. Appointed leather worker and supplier. BBG is already engaged on designing the shoulder carry strap for the LREs. These will be individually crafted and serial numbered to the parent gun.

WHAT ELSE???

Probably a lot more but that is enough here for now. I am contemplating presentation cases for the weapons. The guns will be individually serial numbered and (hopefully) we can get some signature engraving done on them that does not blow the price out of the water!

Watch this space – get involved as much as any of you wish – but NOOOOO you are not going to be given a prototype to play with and shoot for a while – the queue is already too long!!

Take care, be safe and have fun. Any observations or suggestions are welcome – post away!

Aye

Tony
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Old July 8, 2009, 02:21 AM   #2
Ginormous
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Quote:
#13. Ginormouse. (Because he just HAS to be part of this!!!)
Ha! Hey I earned it! My Dragoon cooked me good. And #13 to boot, how appropriate!
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Old July 8, 2009, 02:28 AM   #3
AussieTH
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You just trundle back off into the corner and keep cooling down and healing!

How is the paw by the way? Good I hope!
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Old July 8, 2009, 02:32 AM   #4
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Looks good as new at this point, thanks for asking! A slight scar and a little pink coloration is all that remains. I really don't want to repeat the experience again, so my tender parts get eyes, ears, AND a glove now.
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Old July 8, 2009, 02:47 AM   #5
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Thanks Aussie...good memory you have...

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Old July 8, 2009, 03:06 AM   #6
AussieTH
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Smoking Gun confirmation

yeah - Good one! Welcome aboard Smoking Gun as confirmed #8.

Pics acknowledged of your Walker and 3rd model Sig series Dragoon.

Aye

AussieTH
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Old July 8, 2009, 03:09 AM   #7
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Ha! Methinks that is the first model with the round trigger guard. Damn! caught out so early!!!!
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Old July 8, 2009, 03:14 AM   #8
Ginormous
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My dirty gat:



It has a minor scratch on the barrel now from being dropped quickly when it chainfired. We've come to an understanding now.
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Old July 8, 2009, 04:41 AM   #9
dlon21
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My original 1st model Dragoon, serial 4088. All matching except for unserialized London stamped replacement barrel. I wonder what happened to the original barrel. Am I in?

// Daniel



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Old July 8, 2009, 05:20 AM   #10
AussieTH
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Welcome. With that how could I keep you out????
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Old July 8, 2009, 05:43 AM   #11
Oyeboten
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Hi Aussie TH,



What progress on those Folding Leaf Sights?


Godspeed!



Phil
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Old July 8, 2009, 06:47 AM   #12
Das Jaeger
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Gee Wally

Do I really need to even ask if this is an appropriete article of my Metal ART to be an offical member ? Hee hee hee

Colt Signature Series , serial number # 085 :





Uberti production , Civillian Model :



The Possey !



I like the LRE idea , now hurry up would ya I want mine in Charcoal Blue please , one in Belgium Blue , and one in Plumb Browning thank you . Serial numbers #1 , #2 , and #3 , you heard it here first !

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Old July 8, 2009, 07:43 AM   #13
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Hmmm.

A few thoughts:

'Dragoon' is a term invented by collectors. Colt called them 'Horse Pistols' and included the Walker and Whitneyville in the definition. He also didn't distinguish different models.

I've seen, on this forum some time ago, a detailed description of at least 4 different variations of what we call the 3rd Model. I'll see if I can find the posting. The differences were quite minor but distinct nonetheless.

The Horse Pistols in my herd:


The 2nd Model, a Uberti, S/N 02433, manufactured in 1981 and purchased new in that year. All matching numbers.


The 3rd Model, a Colt Blackpowder Arms 3rd Generation Signature Series, S/N 35689, date of manufacture unknown, purchased at auction in 2005. All matching numbers, and I have the grey box.


The boys together:
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Old July 8, 2009, 10:03 AM   #14
Das Jaeger
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No it wasn't MyKeal

MyKeal , collectors had NOTHING to do with the name Dragoon .
The Dragoons were a Mounted Regiment called the Dragoons , the USMR to be exact .

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Old July 8, 2009, 10:21 AM   #15
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Das Jaeger, one word - DUCK!
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Old July 8, 2009, 10:32 AM   #16
Das Jaeger
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It is what it is

Hey , it is what it is
Wow , BRICK , Incomming , whew missed that one .........
Nothin personal anyway , facts is facts , and I would hope someone would correct me when I am wrong too . Ummm , and its already been done here , once
What can I say , the gun was named after the troops, not by collectors, there wer no collectors collecting Dragoons , they were not collectable in progress , what can I say .
A few Models actualy had The Dragoons and USMR on the Cylinders , so there
It is what it is , hopefully you didn't take offence MyKeal ? Sorry if ya did , wasn't my intent . Peace , darn , nuther Brick !

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Old July 8, 2009, 10:51 AM   #17
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I know what dragoons are.

The use of the word Dragoon, to identify Sam Colt's 7 1/2 inch barrel .44 caliber revolving pistol, manufactured circa 1848 as a follow on to the larger 9 inch barrel .44, for issue to cavalry and mounted infantry in northern Mexico and the southwestern territories of the US, was not by Colt's Manufacturing Company nor any federal or territorial constituency, but rather by collectors well after the gun had been retired from general usage.
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Old July 8, 2009, 11:30 AM   #18
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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Mr. MyKeal is absolutely correct. I myself have never in my life bought a gun without researching, losing sleep, and agonizing for days before finally turning loose of my hard earned money. I own a 1st Model 'Dragoon'. It's a fine little piece but I'll still stick with my '47. I finally ended up buying it out of a weird sense of loyalty. I call it the 'Son Of The Gun'....
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Old July 8, 2009, 11:49 AM   #19
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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AussieTH. Hey, I don't care who likes me and who dosen't. I know that me and John Wesley Hardin would have been real damn good friends if our times had coincided, and I know that James Butler Hickok would have been very careful to leave my little Alabama ass strictly alone.
I like the number eleven. I also appreciate you placing me between two of the better ones on this forum....
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Old July 8, 2009, 11:49 AM   #20
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I disagree

But thats ok too

Das Jeager
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Old July 8, 2009, 12:24 PM   #21
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You can do more than disagree. You can convince me you are correct.

I'd be happy to consider any documentation you'd care to submit that Sam Colt, Colt's Manufacturing Company, the federal government, the government of the Republic of Texas, the US Army, the Texas Rangers or any other government organized militia (including the USMR) referred to the 7 1/2 inch barrel, .44 caliber Colt revolving pistol manufactured circa 1848 by Colt's Manufacturing Company as a 'Dragoon' prior to 1900.

It's very easy to convince me I'm wrong.
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Old July 8, 2009, 12:28 PM   #22
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Wrong thread.

Last edited by Birdmang; July 8, 2009 at 01:58 PM.
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Old July 8, 2009, 12:54 PM   #23
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Brasser Values

Looks like you've got a Colt 1860 Army a Griswald and Gunnison, a Colt 1851 Navy and a 1858 Remington. All reproductions, the only one mirroring the original is the G&G, but it's the wrong caliber. I think they'ed top out around $150.00 each on Gun Broker, depending on the bore and mechanical condition.
ASM no longer makes these so parts might be an issue, plus they were never the best Italian mfgr anyhow. Good luck, you should start your own thread as this one isn't for your gun's.
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Old July 8, 2009, 12:56 PM   #24
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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Nothing wrong with disagreeing so long as one is not insulting and disrespectful about it without cause....No such documentation exists. If it did I would have seen it I'm pretty sure.. Could be wrong I guess. I didn't live back then..

Last edited by GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL; July 8, 2009 at 01:17 PM.
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Old July 8, 2009, 01:00 PM   #25
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Birdmang, this question was answered for you 2 weeks ago, in another thread.

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5700942&postcount=1808

If you post in an inappropriate thread, chances are you won't be able to locate your original post, for any replies.
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