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Old October 29, 2009, 01:34 PM   #2301
JustsayMo
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Sheepdog, the recoil is probably similar to the M1A due to it's lighter weight. 12 gauge is more like 45-70 but it depends on the shells being used. Same is true of the 30-30 though, with subsonic ammo the felt recoil is rimfire-like. Factory stuff is on the low edge of moderate but everyone has their own recoil sensitivity.

As for zero - I'm not certain with those sights but with the factory irons a 25 yard group with a 100 yard zero is just below the bead with 170 grain factory (or equivalent reloads) ammo in my 20" 336's. Point of impact about 1/2" ish or less below point of aim should be about right. If you sight in at 25 yards you have a pretty nice "Point Blank Zero" that will put on a paper plate out to 175 yards or so. Note: this is a rule of thumb and varies rifle to rifle and ammo to ammo. Always confirm before shooting at live game. YMMV

Last edited by JustsayMo; October 29, 2009 at 01:40 PM.
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Old October 29, 2009, 03:38 PM   #2302
Sheepdog1968
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Thanks JustsayMo.

Once I have it roughed in at 25 yards I will also shoot it at 50, 75, 100 (planning to zero after 25 yard rough in), 200 yards so I have an idea of where it hits.

Thanks for the recoil comparison as well.
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I think Thor's hammer was an 45-70 lever action loaded with Garrett cartridges.

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Old October 29, 2009, 04:17 PM   #2303
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I actually had some time at lunch to use Winchester's ballistic calculator. It's very nice. I entered in a lot of different Winchester loads and there was very little difference in impact out to 100 yards.

If I zero at 100 yards, it impacts within +/- 3" of aim out to 150 yards.

If I zero at 175 yards, it impacts within +/- 3" of aim out to 200 yards.

The 100 yard zero makes it shoot much flatter out to 125 yards.

Of course this is Winchester ammo. I also looked at the Hornady's Leverevolution on Hornady's website. It is much flatter all the way out using a 200 yard zero with point of impact being -1.7 in (zero yards) and +3 inches at 100 yards and -12 " at 300 yards. The Winchester rounds are significantly lower at 300 yards.

I gotta get back to work. Hope people find this useful. I've still 40 pages of posts to read so I'm not sure if this is duplication.
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I think Thor's hammer was an 45-70 lever action loaded with Garrett cartridges.

I find that 90% of the questions asked here have been answered 20 or more years ago by Jeff Cooper in his Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip books.

Best website I have ever seen regarding gun facts and figures for your discussions with others:

http://www.gunfacts.info/
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Old October 30, 2009, 11:04 PM   #2304
JustsayMo
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Range Report - 336 SRC w/ Lee "Soup Can" loads

The Rifle= 60's vintage Marlin 336 Saddle Ring Texan, 20" barrel.

The ammo= Lee 113gr RNFP Gas Checked bullet cast from Wheel Weights, Winchester twice fired Brass, Winchester Large Rifle Primers. OAL 2.330"

Conditions, overcast and very windy.

Powder (Use at your own risk. ALWAYS double check loading data with reliable sources!)

1) Red Dot powder - 5 grains (.7cc Lee Scoop) This was the only load that I shot plain based (no gas check). The load averaged 1140 fps, 1116-1148 spread. It was the least accurate of the loads tested. I may try to reduce this load further and see if it improves at all before giving up on it.

2) IMR SR 4756 - 10.5 grains. This load averaged 1604 fps, with a very narrow spread between the high and low for the ten shot string, 1597-1610. It was also impressively accurate, sub 1" group at 50 yards (throw out the flier and the best group was less than 1/2"). It prints ~ 2" lower than the "PapaJohn Load" at 50 yards with the same sight setting. The third notch up from the bottom on the rear sight elevator is POA = POI with this load. Each indent above and below = ~ 2" in Elevation at 25-50 yards.

3) Hercules 2400 17.5 grains. This load looks promisingly accurate too. The spread was a little wider 2013 - 2033. This load heated up the barrel pretty quickly, this rifle tends to start vertically stringing the groups when it gets hot and it was evident in the groups.

The conditions were less than ideal. The wind was blowing hard enough that it pushed my body around. Still this bullet looks like it is as accurate as its reputation.

If I get the chance I'll test it at longer ranges. I'm not sure what I'd use the load for other than "cheap" shooting (you get 60 of these per pound of lead). It would probably make a good Coyote load but is lighter than I'd want on anything bigger. The recoil is very soft with the first two loads and even the fastest load it was hardly noticeable. I'll have to let you know if it will tip over a 200 yard steel Ram silhouette when I get the chance to try it.. There was no leading evident. I'll edit later if needed once I've cleaned it.
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Old October 30, 2009, 11:27 PM   #2305
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New member of the club here. Going to shoot it tomorrow, but have a question. When I load the magazine the gate is extremely tight and all my cases end up getting scratched in the process. normal?
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Old October 30, 2009, 11:56 PM   #2306
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Sheepdog and Vicious-Peanut, welcome in.

(Really like the user name, VP.)

Sheepdog, you're in good company here. Let us know how it feels.

VP, yes, those gates can be very tight. Notice that the gate lip prevents the next rnd from falling out of the magazine, so tight is good.

Mo, I love it when you guys talk reloading talk. Someday ... <sigh>
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Old October 31, 2009, 02:42 AM   #2307
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On a rare Friday night off
on the night before "Halloween",
with a near full moon cruising the sky
amidst fast high clouds being pushed
out of the Pacific by a frantic jet stream,
I revisited some of the earlier posts
in this club thread.

Wow. We've put on some miles here.
There's a lot of interesting stuff back there.

It motivates me to reread more of it.

But right now, I'm captivated by
the velocity of those clouds.

The jet must be going over 100 mph.
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Old November 3, 2009, 09:40 PM   #2308
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I have found a 336cb and heard that they were of a limited production. I was just wondering if anyone knows how many 336cb 30-30's were made between what dates. You would think that information like that would be easy to find on the internet, but I have been having a hard time with it. Thanks for your time-
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Old November 3, 2009, 10:37 PM   #2309
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What a perfect segue way!

wottiv, I believe the 30-30 336 CB was made from 1999-2001. The 336 in 38-55 is more common and had a few more years of production.

That being said, guess what arrived today (finally...)?

Months ago I sent one of my 336 Texans back to Marlin for the Cowboy conversion. Now its back and I'm very pleased with the results.


The original on top. The conversion on the bottom.
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Old November 3, 2009, 11:20 PM   #2310
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Nematocyst, thanks.

A lot of people ask me if there is a reason for the name, and sadly, there isn't. lol
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Old November 4, 2009, 12:35 AM   #2311
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336 Cowboy Conversion - First Impressions

Now that I've wiped the slobber off my chin I'll give you my first impression of the 336 Cowboy Conversion I just got back from Marlin.

The rifle started life as a 336 Texan, 1976 vintage - It was a good shooter, especially cast bullets, so was hesitant but Marlin will only convert more recent vintages. Other factors like finding my eyes like that front sight out a bit farther as get older and continue to resist scoping my leverguns and the fact that I shoot my original 336 Cowboy, especially off hand, best prompted me to "pull the trigger" and take advantage of Marlin's offer.

I'm not certain when I sent it in but I'm thinking it was June or July. A few weeks ago Marlin called and we did the pay part and I've been anxiously waiting ever since. Today was my lucky day!

My expectation was high and the Cowboy exceeded it. My other Cowboys (1894 & 1895) have the smooth stock and it is the aesthetic I prefer. They did a good job matching the wood and the fit is very tight.

After a good cleaning I ran a few rounds through the action. Slick as can be. Even an empty case will feed from the magazine. Next I tested the cycling with a full magazine - slid 8 PapaJohn loads (150 gr Remingtion JSP over IMR 4895) into the magazine and worked them through without a hitch. Sometimes that last round can be a bear to push in, not with this one, all eight went in nice - another plus for the extra 4" of barrel.

I don't know if Marlin did any refitting of the action at all but it seems to be better than I remember it. The trigger isn't exactly light but it is very crisp, without any creep.

I'm VERY excited to get this rifle out to the range. Unfortunately my 30-30 ammo is on the low side at the moment. A few Lee "Soup Can" loads, a match worth (40) of Ranch Dogs TLC311-165 RF (these shoot REAL WELL in my other CB) and the last batch of my precious and much horded "Papa John" loads... Should be enough to get an idea what it will do. Gotta get casting so I can shoot more! So many loads yet to try! I'll let you know how it turns out.
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Old November 4, 2009, 08:53 AM   #2312
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Add me to the club. I only shoot core-lokts through it, but it has never failed to knock a deer flat on it's back. I'm not really sure on which model I have, I bought it new in 2005. Have you guys seen the BPS ad this week? Scoped 336 is front and center for a VERY reasonable price.
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Old November 5, 2009, 02:57 PM   #2313
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Smile

With a rebate, Dicks had them last week for $40 less. I'm dreaming of a Marlin Christmas :-)
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Old November 5, 2009, 03:48 PM   #2314
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Behind reading as usual, haven't even had time to read the last few.

Will catch up this weekend, hopefully, if work doesn't eat my entire lunch before then.

Wow, how I long to shoot my .30 ...
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Old November 5, 2009, 06:54 PM   #2315
crimekilla
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I have a 336rc .35 serial # starts with Y which i believe is a 1964 model. The original stock is rotting at the connecting point to the gun and needs to be replaced. I would like to put an original stock back on and not the checkered ones I see around. I also need some new harware such as the front and rear bands. problem is everything I see for the front band says new style or post 1978. anyone know what the difference between the front band on my gun and the "new style". I also need a new full rear sight. i bought one off of brownells but dont know if it the same as the original equipment.

thanks for any help

also anyone usde the ram synthetic stock ive seen. i orderd it today to use while in the woods deer hunting

Last edited by crimekilla; November 5, 2009 at 07:00 PM.
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Old November 5, 2009, 10:56 PM   #2316
JustsayMo
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Cowboy Conversion goes to the range

My curiosity always seems to get the best of me and I couldn't wait to get the new Marlin 336 Cowboy Conversion out to the range. Every cast 30 caliber bullet I could find in my reloading supplies was loaded and taken to the range. Here are the results (DOUBLE CHECK ALL DATA! USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!)

The first bullets down the barrel were the Oregon Trail 170 grain laser cast .310" RNFP bullet. A load that has proven accurate in all (five) of my 336's is 5 grains of Red Dot powder did in fact prove be accurate in the 336 Cowboy Conversion too. Averaging 1047 fps it produced the best group of the day. This was also the only bullet in this session that was NOT gas checked.

The next load tested was the Lee C309-113F ("Soup Can") over 10.5 grains of IMR SR 4756. I use this charge in my 45 Colts (Ruger and Marlin) and has a dedicated powder measure with that charge. 30-30 data shows I'm well under max pressure and used it as a starting point. The load averaged 1652 fps and also hinted at promising accuracy.

The "Soup Can" bullet was also tested with 3.3 grains (.5cc Lee powder scoop) of Red Dot Powder. At 30 yards the accuracy showed promise measuring .740" under less than ideal conditions, sitting position, poor light, wind and rain. The velocity averaged 856 fps.

My expectation for the Ranch Dog TLC311-165RF was high. It too has proven to be an accurate bullet in my Marlins and it proved to be so again. The weather limited the range I could shoot but I suspect this will be the bullet of choice for Hunting and Silhouette.

My 30-30 silhouette load for my other Marlin 336 Cowboy is the 10.5 grain charge of SR 4756. The new Cowboy conversion averaged about 50 fps slower than my original Cowboy but looks like it will be equally as accurate - perhaps more so, I'll have to tell you when I go 10 for 10 on the 200 meter rams The average velocity was 1402 fps. For those who buy into formulas, using the Veral Smith wound channel estimate for this load gets almost .80" - not bad for a soft shooting load. Shot selection would be critical for adequate penetration - probably stick to archery angles. Ideal would be 1" up to 1.25" wound channel for fast anchoring of delicious deer sized wild critters.

I also use the Ranch Dog bullet over 5 grains of Red Dot for Grouse loads as it typically shoots very close to full powder Jacketed bullet hunting loads out to 50 yards or so. In this rifle it averaged 944 fps which makes for a nice soft recoiling and quiet subsonic load. At 30 yards the group, including the flier was a little over 1/2". Throwing out the flier the group printed into one enlarged hole. It should make easy work for Grouse - still have till the end of the year to try it... - and it is a fun inexpensive plinking load - the gas check and the primer account for most of the cost but I still end up in under ten cents per round, or $2 a box.

Other observations:
-My eyes appreciate that extra 4" distance on the front sight.
-That 4" is noticeable maneuvering around the house, meaning less than ideal for HD. We'll see how that translates in the field later this month.
-It does feel heavier than my 20" 336's. Nice for target shooting, might not be so welcome after walking around with it for a few hours.
-No leading was detected while cleaning the rifle afterward.
-The throat is a bit tighter than my other Marlins - except for the SDT (now owned by Pine Cone). The driving band on the Soup Can bullet does engrave on the rifling.
-Octagon barrels look cool.
-I expect this rifle will do well at long range. There is plenty of sight ramp left to reach out to 300 yards and maybe beyond. Balistic calcs indicate I should be able to hold right on out to nearly 400 yards with the top notch setting using the "soup can" load. That doesn't mean it will but generally they aren't far off.
-To get the estimated wound channel I want for deer hunting using the Ranch Dog bullet I need to find a load that will get me over 1800 fps. That will be the focus of my loading the next batch of RD bullets.
-So far I am very pleased. Marlin returned a rifle that is beautiful and more importantly accurate.

Last edited by JustsayMo; November 6, 2009 at 08:20 AM.
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Old November 6, 2009, 02:45 AM   #2317
Nematocyst
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Crimekilla, welcome in. Somebody here should be able to offer you some help there. (I'm not the one, though.)

Mo, that Cowboy Conversion sounds wonderful. Congrats.

Wow, the thought of getting 300-400 yds with it.
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Old November 6, 2009, 08:30 AM   #2318
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Thanks Nem. I wouldn't shoot any four legged critter at that distance but you can be there will be shots fired at that 400 yard 2'x2' gong. According to the ballistic chart that load will be +58" at 225 yards and only strolling along about 900 fps by the time it gets out to 400 yards. Should I managed to connect the dramatic pause between the rifle report and the clang will be most satisfying.
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Old November 6, 2009, 02:05 PM   #2319
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I had a chance last night to take my 336C out to an indoor range to get it zeroed. Thanks Justsaymo regarding the recoil comparison. It is on par with and M1A, which to me is an acceptable level of recoil. I got about 4 MOA accuracy using the XS sights. 4 MOA is about as good as I can do with iron sights so I am pleased with it's accuracy. The XS sights are very easy to adjust and I like them very much. It's now zeroed at 25 yards. In the next few weekends I will take it out so I can see where it hits at 50, 75, 100, 200 yards.

Two things I noticed and I'd appreciate some feedback as I'm new to this lever action.

I was typically shooting 3 to 6 rounds and then would take a small break as the barrel seemed very warm to hot. Not glowing any colors or anything, but it was hotter than I would have thought for the round count as compared to an M1A that has a medium weight barrel. Have others noticed the same thing?

Loading the rounds required a bit more force than I had expected. Also, it's my first lever action so this physical action is something I'm not used to. It went fine buy I wonder if this has the potential to misalign the bullet in the casing? Probably won't be an issue but I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

This is definately gonna be a fun rifle.
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I think Thor's hammer was an 45-70 lever action loaded with Garrett cartridges.

I find that 90% of the questions asked here have been answered 20 or more years ago by Jeff Cooper in his Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip books.

Best website I have ever seen regarding gun facts and figures for your discussions with others:

http://www.gunfacts.info/
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Old November 6, 2009, 06:05 PM   #2320
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Just want to mention that Bass Pro has Marlin 336s right now on sale that come with a scope mount, rings, and some sort of scope (the ad doesn't say what kind - it just says literally "with a 3-9 power scope"), for $365 after the $35 manuf'ers rebate ($400 store price initially). Not great but not too shabby either. I may be $5 off one way or the other on that.
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Old November 6, 2009, 07:28 PM   #2321
JustsayMo
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2nd range trip for the 336 CB conversion

I was hoping for nicer weather, instead more wind and rain. Since I was there, why not shoot?

The load that is emerging as the favorite is the Ranch Dog TLC311-165 bullet over SR 4756. The picture below shows three 50 yard groups each on a different notch on the rear sight elevator (2nd, 3rd and 4th up from the bottom). The point of aim was the bottom of the wide black ring.



The Papa John load showed promise too though it printed about 5" high on the lowest notch at 50 yards.


The Laser Cast 170 grain bullet shot well too.

The Lee 113gr bullet over SR4756 or Red Dot didn't fair as well at the longer range. The conditions may have played a part in that. I will retest at a later date.
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Old November 11, 2009, 09:24 PM   #2322
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Another trip to the range with the 336 CB conversion

I jumped at the chance to shoot without pouring rain, soggy targets and howling wind... I also wanted a chance to confirm my earlier findings. Here is how it went.

Weather; overcast and calm wind.

Rifle: Marlin 336 Cowboy conversion - Caliber 30-30

Started out at the 50 yard range with a cold clean bore using the SR4756 load (~1400 fps)/ Ranch Dog TLC 311-165 RF bullet to confirm the zero I had established on the previous range trip. The first shot was about 2" high, the next shot was 1" high and the next three made a nice little <7/8" triangle right at point of aim.

I fired another five shot group with the same load and it too shot point of aim but expanded to 1-1/8". Then another that printed POA inside of 7/8". This is the load I will use for for the Levergun Silhouette matches. Using the 5th notch and holding at the top of the back of the 200 yard Rams, it should topple them if I do my part.

Next up was a middle of the road load using the same excellent Ranch Dog TLC 311-165 RF bullet - weighs in at 177 grains with this alloy, lubed and gas checked over Hercules 2400 powder (current versions of this powder are now made by Alliant). Using the same sight setting as the previous load (3rd notch up from the bottom on the elevator ramp) this load printed 5" higher at 50 yards. The first three shots formed a 2" triangle centered on the bullseye. Adjusting the rear sight to the second notch the next 5 shot group printed 2-1/2" above the point of aim into a 2" group. Not exactly the accuracy I was hoping for but well within the realm of minute of Deer vitals out well beyond what I'd take a shot on a critter. Using Veral Smith's formula this load should also penetrate more than 40" of critter minus bones. A quartering away shot through the boiler room and the offside shoulder should produce a dead Deer sized critter within rock throwing distance of the hit.

A load that continues to impress is the 170 grain Oregon Trail Laser-Cast bullet over 5 grains of Red Dot powder. This load produced the best group of the day just over 1/2". Using the zero for the SR4756 load it prints 2" higher and 1" to the right. This load averages 1047 fps.

The Lee C309-113 F "Soup Can" bullet over 2.8 grains (a .3 cc Lee powder Scoop) produced 1-1/8" accuracy at 50 yards and using the SR4756 load zero printed the slightly left (~1/2") of Point of Aim. This load looks like it will be my "Grouse load" for this rifle. At 25 yards it prints ~1" above point of aim, putting the bead at the base of the neck should produce a clean kill with no destruction of the delicious meat. When hunting with this rifle I will have at least a Grouse limit's worth in my pocket. The report is rimfire like and the recoil non existent.

Returning to the SR4756 load it appears the 100 yard Zero is right at or just above the 4th notch. I did not shoot enough groups at this range to confirm that. Using my ballistic software I can estimate that the 150 yard zero is on the 5th notch and the 200 yard zero should be just below the sixth (top) notch.

I also shot two groups worth off hand. The front bead just hangs on the target and I was able to call my shots. It will give me NO excuses in the matches for misses... Good problem.

I am very pleased with the conversion and this rifle is fast becoming a favorite. Can't wait to get it back out to the range.
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Old November 13, 2009, 09:18 AM   #2323
ozarkgunner
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I bought my first 336c about a month and a half ago. So far I like it. Still getting it sighted in. It has some sort of fiber optic open sights. Getting better with it. Have to get used to it. I'm not really used to firing larger caliber rifles. It's fairly new. Anything I should know about it?
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Old November 14, 2009, 04:47 AM   #2324
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Add me to the list too. I just acquired a used 336 yesterday. I'm very excited, this is my first lever gun. I've been wanting a lever action .30-30 for a very long time.
I haven't gotten to shoot it yet. It came with a scope, but I want just iron sights. I'm looking at the XS system right now. Any suggestions?
Also, it looks like the rear sights aren't really there. There is a metal tang looking thing, but it isn't high enough to be used with the front sight.
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Old November 16, 2009, 12:48 PM   #2325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justang View Post
Add me to the list too. I just acquired a used 336 yesterday. I'm very excited, this is my first lever gun. I've been wanting a lever action .30-30 for a very long time.
I haven't gotten to shoot it yet. It came with a scope, but I want just iron sights. I'm looking at the XS system right now. Any suggestions?
Also, it looks like the rear sights aren't really there. There is a metal tang looking thing, but it isn't high enough to be used with the front sight.
I put the XS sights on mine and like it. The company is very good and helpful. I have no regrets about using their sights.
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I think Thor's hammer was an 45-70 lever action loaded with Garrett cartridges.

I find that 90% of the questions asked here have been answered 20 or more years ago by Jeff Cooper in his Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip books.

Best website I have ever seen regarding gun facts and figures for your discussions with others:

http://www.gunfacts.info/
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