At what point are you considered too mentally unstable?

[rainbowbob]

This is not to say that we need to turn into a bunch of rats just that we as family members are better equipped to see some of these danger signs if we are willing to open our eyes.

For those "who have eyes to see".

I agree that family and friends should play a significant role in ensuring that loved ones are safe and well - whatever that takes.

I obtained my first revolver - the one I carry every day - when my family moved my uncle into a care facility because he was no longer competent. My S.I.L. found it while we were cleaning out his apartment, and I assured them I would take care of the "problem". So there are side-benefits for looking after your own family.

Seriously, though, my uncle was not competent enough to own a firearm any more. That wasn't a determination made by a doctor or a lawyer - it was made by the people who love him. He never even mentioned it.

In the same vein, I would not like to see my son own a firearm. He is prohibited under the law due to the several involuntary commitments he has been given. Even if he wasn't prohibited, if he wanted a firearm, I would do anything I could to discourage it. When he is well he is a gentle, loving, thoughtful, talented young man. When he is not well...all bets are off.

The difference between well - and not well?

The meds. Period.

[Cosmoline]

Again...gotta call BS. How would that even work?

Well as you just stated, all it takes is the requisite numbers of "qualified" individuals to attest before a magistrate that you need to be held because you're a danger to yourself. No jury of twelve involved. You are thereby "convicted" of a crime that simply does not exist in most states. And you are punished much more severely than true criminals because the State believes it has the power to control your beating heart. The whole system is deeply rotten and fundamentally illegal, but it continues because the psychs have defined anyone who is suicidal as "mentally ill" and therefore not deserving of continued liberty.

Absolutely. Furthermore, he should be taken to a "camp" and eventually put in a gas chamber, because he has a very low IQ.

?? No, he should be given the same rights and responsibilities as anyone else. And if he CHOOSES to be a criminal then he must pay the price. One of the prices is that law abiding people will no longer associate with you. Being stupid does not cause people to turn to crime or threaten their parents. Some of the wisest and best people I've known have been some of the thickest planks around, and conversely some of the true geniuses I've known have been weak as water and totally unreliable. So don't tell me that because some kid has a low IQ he has some excuse for threatening to beat his parents if they don't give him cig money. That's just a bad apple, and the best course of action is to stay clear of him until he either takes off or his parents finally crack down on his nonsense.

I'm trying to imagine what would have happened if I'd threatened my parents for money growing up.. LOL That nonsense would not have lasted long.

[rondog]

Inbred

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
rondog: Please tell me that image was photo-shopped. Yikes!

Nope.

Twins.

They didn't come from the gene pool, they came from a gene puddle.

Family tree with insufficient branches.

AG, do you know a story behind that photo? I just found it on the 'net. Scary lookin' characters fer sure.

[rainbowbob]

...as you just stated, all it takes is the requisite numbers of "qualified" individuals to attest before a magistrate that you need to be held because you're a danger to yourself.

[Sarcasm] Yeah...ALL it takes is two doctors, who have devoted their lives and fortunes to becoming qualified to make some of the hardest decisions anyone will ever have to make, to attest before a magistrate, who has also devoted his life and fortune to become qualified to make these hard choices, who then must take testimony from family and friends and listen to an attorney for the patient arguing why you should not be committed.

And all of these professionals are are such devoted hoplophobes that they would stake their reputations on committing you because you own a firearm and they have vowed to remove gun-owners from the population one at a time by improperly committing them to a psych hospital.

Yeah..that's "all" it takes.

Oh wait! I forgot the part where your loved ones have to convince a team of field professionals that will do everything in their power to convince you that there is nothing they can do for your ill family member because he isn't - at this precise moment - doing anything that would qualify him as "a danger to himself or others".

Those folks like to cover their behinds and don't want to make a determination that will backfire on them - and besides there aren't any beds available anyway - so they will nearly always intentionally err on the side of caution and refuse to take in the ill person even for observation.

Sometimes, somehow, you CAN convince them to do so - but usually the psych evaluation occurs after some kind of run-in with the police. Most LEOs are more willing and competent to send somebody for a psych evaluation than the professionals charged with the job.

Then, after 72 hours of observation by nurses, doctors, social workers, etc, a hearing in court is scheduled. This is when the professional hoplophobes who are hell-bent on committing you in order to extinguish your 2A rights get to put their nefarious scheme into play. [/Sarcasm]

[rainbowbob]

...he should be given the same rights and responsibilities as anyone else. And if he CHOOSES to be a criminal then he must pay the price.

Most crimes committed by a psychotically ill person are not "choices" - at least not a choice by the definition most of use.

Nobody chooses to be mentally ill.

Approximately 50% of those who are so afflicted don't know it - because the organ used to make that self-determination is grossly impaired.

That sub-set does not take medication because they don't believe they are ill.

A sub-set of those are so grossly impaired that they may believe things such as hearing God's voice emanating from the television commanding them to kill Satan's hand-servant (who may actually be a family member or a complete stranger) in order to avert a world-ending catastrophe. They kill because it is their duty to obey God's voice.

I realize all this sounds fantastical - but I assure you these are not "made up" excuses to avoid prosecution in the vast majority of such cases. If somebody kills with no disceranble motive...if it just doesn't make any sense at all...it probably DID make some kind of sense in the sick brain of the perpetrator.

Early intervention in such cases can and does save lives.

[U.S.SFC_RET]

There is a greater number of people requiring daily medication in society than you might think. One posing problem is how its done. How many psychiatrists are starting medication correctly? I will venture to say this for those in the mental health field who strive to "science" in the profession. There are more in the field who view that science differently. If you have family who require medication see to it that their prognosis is correct and medication is matched.
I will worry more because of the byproduct of mismanagement in the mental health profession. If it was you who experienced mismanagement over time and if it was you got placed in a mental facility how in the world are you going to untie that legal knot?
There are growing numbers of veterans who are facing this issue and are denied their RBKA rights.

[Millwright]

Usually at the wee hours when I have to awaken. Or after a half-dozen drinks......But it all 'rights itself' about noon the following day.......

Been working on this premise for some 5 decades. No bodies. No incidents.

Don't buy guns when I'm drunk. Don't shoot then under the same conditions..... >MW

[NukemJim]

OK this is my question.

May I please see the numerical data on how effective the treatment is?...I want to see the numbers, not the platitudes about how effective it is.

and this is the answer

Anyone who has witnessed the effects of acute psychosis in a loved one knows just how REAL it is. I can assure you it is every bit as real as a shin bone protruding through the skin - you just can't "see" it.

When you see first-hand the effects of proper medical treatment on those very real symptoms - you KNOW that treatment works.

I really like those numbers.

I will also bring up again how come 99% of the ADHD cases are in the US? Not Canada, Mexico, England, Japan or other contries. If it is a true disease please explain the distribution pattern.

Now I already said that there are some organic based diseases that can be helped such as bipolar and you mentioned schizophrenia. How many other "diagnosies" have NOT been covered. Remember when homosexuality was listed as a disease? I do.

but it is impossible to maintain for more than about an hour. That's why observation periods are generally 72 hours. Within that time, the symptoms of an acutely psychotic patient will manifest unmistakeably in most cases.

By the way you do realize that you have contradicted yourself in the above statement? If it is impossible to maintain for more than about an hour than how come it will manifest unmistakeably in MOST cases.

By the way how many hours observation with the Virginia Tech shooter (I refuse to use his name, he wanted to be famous) was under before they decided that he was OK?

I have also been involved in involuntary admissions to psych units both as a witness and restraining patients, there have been mistakes made and times when family members stated things that the LEOs and MDs then took as facts without any verification. If you do not think that family members will lie for someones "own good" you have not dealt with many families. 1 instance that I saw wasnot an attempts not take someone 2A rights away but rather to get the persons possesions. You could regain your possesion but if commited will not be able to regain your 2A rights, they were not after the 2A rights it was just "collateral damage".

I do believe that the psych community wants to help people and that they do care, but then so did the people who used leeches/bloodletters and do not forget there were some people who were helped by bloodletters and some being helped today with leeches. That does not mean that bloodletting is a valid medical technique except in rare circumstanes, such as polycythemia vera for bloodletters and limb reattachment for leeches.

NukemJim

[Vikingsoftpaw]

Quote:
That's pretty much what the gun-grabbers get when they try to use backdoor methods like taking people's guns for all mental health issues or even just seeing a pyschologist about family problems...

...Didn't they pass a bill that says all returing vets that have mental health issues lose their 2nd Amendment rights?
Do you have ANY evidence that anyone anywhere has ever lost their 2A rights for "...seeing a psychologist about family problems..." - or that a bill has been passed "...that says all returing vets that have mental health issues lose their 2nd Amendment rights?

Unless you can provide some evidence of these claims - I gotta call BS.

----------------------

If I recall correctly, it was done by executive order in the closing days of the Clinton Administration. All vets that sought mental help were added of the federal 'no can buy' list.

[rainbowbob]

OK this is my question.

Quote:
May I please see the numerical data on how effective the treatment is?...I want to see the numbers, not the platitudes about how effective it is.

Apparently you missed the next paragraph.

The answer was...

There are tons of research studies proving the efficacy of treatment on brain disorders. I could go back and research them all and then provide links to hundreds of such studies - but I'd rather not spend the time looking them up and citing them when it is doubtful anyone will actually read them for the sake of an internet discussion. Those interested can go to “PubMed”, a search engine for scientific literature, or perhaps Google “efficacy of anti-psychotic treatment” and do the reading.

I will also bring up again how come 99% of the ADHD cases are in the US?

Why? What does that have to do with a discussion about what level of mental illness triggers a statutory prohibition of 2A rights? Have you ever heard of anyone having their rights infringed upon for having a diagnosis of ADD?

By the way you do realize that you have contradicted yourself in the above statement? If it is impossible to maintain for more than about an hour than how come it will manifest unmistakeably in MOST cases.

Come again? Perhaps you are confused by my reluctance to use absolutes. Would it make more sense to you if I had written that it will manifest unmistakeably in ALL cases?

OK...it will manifest in ALL cases that are genuinely a psychotic illness. Better?

By the way how many hours observation with the Virginia Tech shooter...was under before they decided that he was OK?

If you read anything about that case, you would be aware that he was ordered for mandatory treatment. He didn't comply voluntarily (no surprise) and nobody ever followed up. If they had followed up with mandatory treatment, it's possible that tragedy would never have occurred.

[rainbowbob]

If I recall correctly, it was done by executive order in the closing days of the Clinton Administration. All vets that sought mental help were added of the federal 'no can buy' list.

It's possible, but I'm not aware of it. Anybody else have any evidence of that a little more convincing than "If I recall correctly..."?

[eddism]

A judge can adjudicate one's standing in court regarding sanity. It's an everyday thing in today's courts. Defense lawyers play the sanity card as standard practice when somebody gets charged for a violent crime. Ever heard of someone being diagnosed as temperarily insane during stabbing their chair-tied spouse over 200 times? I heard this one just last week and that she may have to face home-incarcination for 8 months.

[rondog]

Jeez, rainbowbob, you make it sound like getting my wife committed is going to be an uphill battle.....

[rainbowbob]

Jeez, rainbowbob, you make it sound like getting my wife committed is going to be an uphill battle.....

I'm tellin' ya...it ain't easy!

[X-Rap]

A lot of info but still no answer to the question. Its funny cause when alcohol or even a bar is mentioned the answer comes quick. There is no tolerance.
It seems that psychological considerations are much more complicated??

[rainbowbob]

A lot of info but still no answer to the question.

Good point.

I can tell you about mental illness, and I can tell you what it takes to become a prohibited person because of it in WA State.

The answer varies from state to state.

I'm interested in hearing what the bar is in other states.

[scythefwd]

x-rap - we know alcohol affects decision making and can alter personality... mental / psychological conditions are a bit more varied. I have a cousin this is responsible and even tempered enough to own a gun and he is learning disabled. My sister, who isn't LD is not responsible enough.

[X-Rap]

But how can you or me say that someone like your LD cousin for example is OK to have a gun, and to what degree should they be allowed to have it. Does he carry concealed, hunt, have it in his home for defense, or use it only under supervision. I agree that the conditions are greatly varied, the question or problem for me is that mental issues seem to be so taboo when we discuss restrictions but other conditions in society have such little tolerance.

[Cosmoline]

Yeah...ALL it takes is two doctors, who have devoted their lives and fortunes to becoming qualified to make some of the hardest decisions anyone will ever have to make, to attest before a magistrate, who has also devoted his life and fortune to become qualified to make these hard choices, who then must take testimony from family and friends and listen to an attorney for the patient arguing why you should not be committed.

And yet these folks feel perfectly fine imprisoning someone for a non-crime that cannot be found in the penal codes. You're asking us to trust people who participate in these kangaroo courts. I never will. Unless a person has been found guilty of an ACTUAL CRIME, the state has no business locking them up. Hearing what a "hard choice" these doctors have really doesn't make me sympathetic. They're putting people away who have never been found guilty of a crime. Not to mention voiding their fundamental liberties even after their release.

I wonder how said Psychs would react if I busted down their door and took them away, sticking them in a windowless room, then told them not to complain because it was "only" for 72 hours. LOL

Most crimes committed by a psychotically ill person are not "choices" - at least not a choice by the definition most of use.

We were talking about a teen who's "mental illness" is having a low IQ.

Furthermore, there are a lot of completely crazy people out there who never hurt anyone. Most, in fact. I favor a system that judges everyone under the same laws based on what they've done to others. So does the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

[444]

I don't think there is a lot of busting down people's doors to put them on a 72 hour hold. Or putting them in windowless rooms.

These people come to the attention of society in some way that caused someone to respond to where they are. Normally, what they did is obviously "not normal". I have seen at least one case where someone was detained on a 72 hour hold just because other people said they were suicidal, but I have also seen many others where someone else said someone was suicidal and it didnt' appear to be the case and that person was left to go on about their business.
"The system" has far too much on it's plate to have time to go around randomly picking people to round up.

[JohnBT]

The ones I've known over the decade who were green warranted were out playing in traffic or talking to lightpoles or the aliens or something. The line they crossed was not being able to respond halfway appropriately when the cops tried to talk to them. Halfway meaning they probably were so engrossed in what they were doing they didn't even know anybody was talking to them.

One guy, with a college degree fwiw, had done so much really good coke that he went downtown to the police station on a Friday night and tried to swear out a warrant on the Devil.



The aides on the locked psych evaluation ward wanted to know where he got the coke because his blood scored the biggest numbers anyone had ever seen.

They let him go after he sobered up in a day or two.

John

[scythefwd]

X-rap - I can say it because I know him personally. I know his personality. I don't trust him with having complete access as of yet. He still has to earn that trust... but he is only 10. I am not for someone who has been found by a court or psychiatrist to be insane with a propensity to violence having access to a gun. I am against people who cannot tell reality from fantasy having a gun. I am against people who know right from wrong but show no remorse when they do wrong / compassion for others owning either. I am dead set against people drinking and carrying. I know a guy who is reasonable, well adjusted person who got drunk because he was having a rough patch in his life and popped off a few rounds into the air. I have seen people who were drunk put other peoples lives in danger without another thought.

It all boils down to the person, and whether they are responsible enough to handle a gun. Making that decision comes down to parenting (although I will let a court or psychiatrist make that call in the absence of parenting).

[Cosmoline]

I am against people who cannot tell reality from fantasy having a gun. I am against people who know right from wrong but show no remorse when they do wrong / compassion for others owning either.

As a personal or governmental matter? It's one thing to disassociate yourself from someone and refuse to be around them or let them use your firearms. It's another for the state to take away a core liberty because it's decided the person can't tell what's real from what isn't. If you press the point, nobody knows what's actually "real." And ultimately maybe nothing is.

[CMPJUNKIE]

I know a fair amount about the law and can answer your question decisively. The answer is NO, you are not considered "mentally unstable" by default, if you take a psychiatric medication such as an SSRI. Furthermore, being "mentally unstable," or "do you take any psychiatry drugs?" is not what they ask on the NICS form you fill out to buy a firearm and then run a background check on you.

What NICS asks is very narrow and very specific. It asks if you have ever been involuntarily committed to a mental hospital/institution or have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective?

What this means is exactly what it sounds. First, have you ever been involuntarily committed? That means have you ever been civilly committed, forced to go to a hospital for psychiatric observation and/or treatment. If thats never happened to you, then youve passed one part of this question.

On the other hand, you could have voluntarily been treated for a severe mental illness inpatient and that doesnt qualify as involuntary commitment. And still legally answer "no" on the NICS. If it wasnt involuntary, nothing to worry about.

The second part of the question, the part about being mentally adjudicated as a mental defective, is a court procedure. This sometimes goes along with being involuntarily committed, but not always. Here, you go before a Judge and they look at your IQ level, perception, judgment, etc. and a Judge can issue an order classifying you as "mentally defective."

So if either of these two things has happened to you, you cannot legally answer "yes" on this section of NICS.

Seeing a psychiatrist or other mental health professional and being prescribed psychiatry drugs, even for very severe problems, does not prohibit you from answering "no" on the NICS question.

Stop worrying and go buy your firearm...live your life. Have some fun. Shoot some deer or get into high power rifle competition shooting. It will probably help your mental illness! Serious. Dont feel like you are "defective" or "mentally unstable" just cause you see a shrink and take an SSRI. Big deal...


Richard

[rainbowbob]

Stop worrying and go buy your firearm...live your life. Have some fun. Shoot some deer or get into high power rifle competition shooting. It will probably help your mental illness! Serious. Dont feel like you are "defective" or "mentally unstable" just cause you see a shrink and take an SSRI. Big deal...

Excellent post, CMPJUNKIE...a very definitive answer to the OP's question.