45-70 govt vs 500 smith and wesson

[MAURICE]

I don't own a rifle in either caliber, but if I was doing the buying it would definitely be the .45-70 because of it's versatility and history.

[Maverick223]

When comparing straight on ballistics from reloading books, etc, don't forget to calculate for the longer barrel of the .500 rifle you are looking at. Most all load data is for an 8 3/8" barreled revolver, or maybe 10" test barrel, not a 16-22" rifle barrel...

The data that I used was for a 15" T/C barrel, I couldn't find any longer bbl for the 500S&W, though I doubt that velocity would change drastically.

I would not exactly call the break action rifles "weak".....they can be chambered for monsters such as the Nitro Express family which would put even the strongest 45-70 to shame...

In comparison to the average [.45-70Govt.] actions they are weak, the large African cartridges (NE et al) are very low pressure and are relatively weak as well. OTOH there are high pressure cartridges (bottleneck magnums and such) available in break actions, but these are typically a more stout design than those designed for African cartridges, .45-70s, and shotshells.

[MistWolf]

"Impressive penetration but keep in mind they were using solids (Sledgehammer are solids)...any reasonable cartridge can do quite the numbers with a solid bullet.


I saw what a cheap Mosin Nagant FMJ bullet does to a solid oak Going through and through and never recovered the bullet....how 2 feet of solid oak pass through sounds like???

A diminuitive 160 gr, soft point bullet fired from a 6.5x55 (~2000 ft/lb at the muzzle) can go completely through a Moose...."

My point exactly. Terminal perfromance is about the slug not what's printed on the bottom of the brass. A 45-70 with a solid will penetrate and kill an African buffalo. The 458 will as well.

A more contemporary article I read stated that the 458 was very popular with PHs becasue rifles and ammo was available. Other calibers have fallen into disuse more due to economics and politics. From what I understand the 458 is also one of the calibers in recent times that the factories have throttled back as their understanding of the dynamics of internal pressures have grown more sophisticated. Modern powders are also more stable and less susceptible to pressure changes due to temperatures.

The 458 has proven an effective cartridge in Africa and Alaska. So has the 45-70

[saturno_v]

In comparison to the average [.45-70Govt.] actions they are weak, the large African cartridges (NE et al) are very low pressure and are relatively weak as well. OTOH there are high pressure cartridges (bottleneck magnums and such) available in break actions, but these are typically a more stout design than those designed for African cartridges, .45-70s, and shotshells.

Maverick

You gotta be kidding me right??


From the 470 NE through the 500, the 600 and the 700 all of them can launch a heavier bullet than the strongest 45-70 load can ever do at faster velocities.

The "lowly" 470 NE can propel a 500 gr. slug at 2200 fps, the strongest 45-70 I can find can throw a 400 gr. bullet at 2108 fps....and usually higher velocities means higher pressures...

The 600 NE can spit a 800 gr. slug at 2250 fps, a 700 Nitro Express can launch a 1000 gr. slug up to 2450 fps...got that??

All of these cartridges are classic for break action double rifles.

I have an old catalog with models from Holland & Holland, Purdey James, Sodia and others where their double rifle chambering in all models go from 375 H&H to 458 Win Mag, 470, 500 and so on....no "different" design for rifles designed for bottlenecked cartridges....the only difference is for models designed to fire smaller calibers (7 mm Magnum, 240 Apex and various other European calibers) where the barrels are skinnier.

Break Action rifles can be very strong (the strongest actually)....as with any other action, they are designed depending on their use...a bolt action 22 LR will not be as strong as a Weatherby Mark V safari action....

[MistWolf]

The express cartridges are loaded to lower pressures. But that doesn't make their terminal ballistics weak

[saturno_v]

The express cartridges are loaded to lower pressures. But that doesn't make their terminal ballistics weak

Lower pressures compared to what?? A 458 Win Mag or a 460 Wby?? Yes...a souped up 45-70?? No....

[MistWolf]

Understood. The 45-70 is one of those cartridges loaded to lower pressures. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I believe that standard factory smokeless 45-70 loads use even less pressure for less performance than the tropical Express loads. The object of my previous post was to point out that just because the Express cartridges used a lower pressure than the standard it didn't mean they were weak

[saturno_v]

Understood. The 45-70 is one of those cartridges loaded to lower pressures. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I believe that standard factory smokeless 45-70 loads use less pressure than the tropical Express loads. The point of my previous post was to point out that just because the Express cartridges used a lower pressure than the standard it didn't mean they were weak

Of course they are not

Maverick stated that the NE cartridges are lower pressure than the 45-70 (modern loads or otherwise), he called them "weak and that the break action rifles are weak....instead the break action can be the strongest of any.

[Onmilo]

If you look at the ballistic tables, you will note that when fired in those handguns, the .500 & .460 S&W Magnums, they are near identical to what the .45-70 and .50-70 produce in 32" long rifles.

A .500 S&W Magnum is a modern version of the old .50-70 and if you choose to load with rifle powders when shooting in a rifle you will exceed the capabilities of the older .50-70.

S&W didn't do anything monumental, they siomply adapted two 100 year old cartridges for use in their tricky handgun design.
Brilliant but not unique by any means.

[SharpsDressedMan]

The stop/kill a horse thing is interesting. I would think that any round that hit the horse hard enough that he didn't want to carry a rider anymore would be sufficient enough for the task. It wouldn't necessarily need to kill the horse, only stop him.

[ArmedBear]

A .500 S&W Magnum is a modern version of the old .50-70 and if you choose to load with rifle powders when shooting in a rifle you will exceed the capabilities of the older .50-70.

The .50-70 sucked in 1870 and it sucks now. There's a reason it was replaced by the .45-70 after only a few years of service in the military, and never gained any popularity outside the military. The .45-70 lasted as a military round until the smokeless era, and is still in common use by civilians.

The .500 S&W is a world-class handcannon round. The .45-70 is one of the world-class rifle rounds, still used for 1000 yard competition. Different cartridges, with different intents.

Obviously, they'll both lob lead downrange. However, if I had to choose between them in a single shot rifle, the .45-70 would be the easy choice.

[Maverick223]

The object of my previous post was to point out that just because the Express cartridges used a lower pressure than the standard it didn't mean they were weak

That is exactly the point that I was trying to make as well...furthermore velocity has very little to do with pressure. A high pressure cartridge is simply one that has a comparatively small case capacity with regards to its energy (mass * velocity ^ 2). I am pretty sure that no one was saying that any of the NE rounds were anemic in any way.

he called them "weak and that the break action rifles are weak....instead the break action can be the strongest of any.

I did not call NE rounds "weak", only low velocity. Also I called the average .45-70Govt. break action weak, and went on to say that there are other (break actions) are not (as in high pressure magnum rounds). The large African cartridges do not typically have high velocity and therefore do not need a very robust rifle except in the case of the thrust block at the rear of the chamber as the "bolt thrust" is fairly severe with the large boomers.

[Wanta B]

OK,I have to jump in on this one.

I have spent a good deal of time in Africa and personaly seen a can attest to seeing the "little 45-70" out of Marlin 1895s kill and penitrate further than even the vaulted 460 Weatherby...repeatedly and side by side in two cases on two seperate elephants.This is nothing new nor unheard of.Quite the contrary,many conversations have centered around this phenomnon...I personaly beleave it to be hydrostaic in nature.Hit water with your hand quickly and there is a lot of "slap" with little penitration.Do the same a noticeable amout slower and you get less "slap" with better penitration.

To say the 45-70 is not a cartridge worthy of hunting any land animal on this planet is so very incorrect!!! Other than bragging rights and "customary carry" the 1895s and 1896s do VERY well.Fast follow up shots fast reload/top offs And they have proven very reliable.

Any doubts as to the strength of the Marlin 1895 do a search for the most powerful leveraction...It will blow your mind,your shoulder and your target to kingdom come!

I would go 45-70 unless you are matching to a revolver.Wish S&W made a modern 45-70 revolver!

[saturno_v]

...furthermore velocity has very little to do with pressure.....

Again, you gotta be kidding right??

Velocity has everything to do with pressure....you can have a higher pressure round with a smaller case capacity being slower than a lower pressure one with significant higher capacity (for example comparing the 308 to a 30-06) but if you have two rounds of identical or nearly identical case capacity and one is higher pressure, the high pressure one will always develop higher velocity.....higher pressure = higher temperature = higher sound speed in that gas = faster pressure wave propagation.......ballistic 101...

The large African cartridges do not typically have high velocity and therefore do not need a very robust rifle

All the double rifle models I can find info on (H&H and Purdey James) offer chambering ranging from 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag and all the NE rounds......so is that action strong or not???

You said

In comparison to the average [.45-70Govt.] actions they are weak, the large African cartridges (NE et al) are very low pressure and are relatively weak as well.

So to me you were implying that the break action rifles are weaker than the average 45-70 action...which is not true.

[Wanta B]

Careful there...358 Win and 338 Fed. have more velocity at lower pressure than 308 Win does with the same weight 180gr projectile and same case size. So,no,higher pressure does NOT always indicate higher velocity.

[saturno_v]

have spent a good deal of time in Africa and personaly seen a can attest to seeing the "little 45-70" out of Marlin 1895s kill and penitrate further than even the vaulted 460 Weatherby...repeatedly and side by side in two cases on two seperate elephants

What kind of bullet?? Same for both rounds?? A Garrett Hammerhead 300 gr. 44 Mag hardcast can outpenetrate a 300 gr. 375 H&H Nosler Partition....is that means that a 44 Mag will always reliably oupenetrate a 375 H&H?? Not a chance...

You know, a 460 Wby can launch a 500 gr. slug at 2600 fps or a 600 gr. at 2450 fps...8000 ft/lb of energy....where the strongest 45-70 can spit a 400 gr. pill at 2100 fps

I don't know what you really witnessed....bullet type?? shooting angles??


If the 45-70 is so "magic" (in a fast repeater rifle to boot) that can outpenetrate a 460 Wby, why experienced African hunters bother spending that kind of money in the Nitro Express and Weatherby rounds and rifles?? They could save a lot of money and go 45-70 right??

I hope H&H Hunter doesn't read your post...I would love to see his take on this...

Talking about nonsense.....when enthusiasm clouds reason....

[saturno_v]

Careful there...358 Win and 338 Fed. have more velocity at lower pressure than 308 Win does with the same weight 180gr projectile and same case size.

Not according to the Hodgdon reloading manual


Max vel for a 180 gr. 308 Win is 2683 fps at 58,200 PSI

Max vel for a 180 gr. 358 Win is 2603 fps (pressure rating only in CUP so you cannot compare it)

Max vel for a 180 gr. 338 Federal is 2811 fps at 59,900 PSI


338 Federal...higher velocity and higher pressure.

However when the values (pressure and bullet weight) are very close, the different overboring ratio between the different cartridges may be a factor...

[Wanta B]

I am intimately familiar with both cartridges...owne weapons chambered for both.

It was an experiment in an attempt to discover how this could be.Yes the projectiles where the same.Both solids and soft round noses were used.Both fired multiple times from nearly the same angles,cavet being tissue damage nessesitated POI being slightly to one side or the other.Using the same weight projectiles the 45-70 had more penitration...I do however suspect that the 460 would do better with heavier solids but can say the 45-70 still came out over the 460 with heavier softs...Again I beleave this to be do to the hydrostatic shock value.By the way all animals were already dead.

Speaking of Garrett,he has exposed of this subject too...the penetration qualities of the slower 45-70 vs. higher velocity .458s.

As to saving money,vs. weapon used...I have a Dodge Charger that will beat the pants of Ferraris,that was built for much less money,yet folks still buy Ferraris. Like I said "customary carry" has a LOT(notice punn) to do with it as does what is legal to hunt with and long held biases as to what is effective.

Am I enthusiastic about the 45-70...absolutely! Am I talking nonsense,no.

[Wanta B]

AUHH!! True to a point on the 308,338,358s...I just happen to owne one of each in the same Ruger hawkeye "platforms".Loaded with the same powder,same charge,same weight projectile...velocity increases with bore size.

[Wanta B]

I too hope H&H Hunter chimes in. I would like to hear their input to the discussion and would be pleased to make their aquaintence.

Thinly veiled my freind,thinly veiled...and wholely ineffective.

[Wanta B]

BTW,levergun hunts are becoming rather popular in Africa.So it would seem more folks are trading in the high dollar arms as they discover the practicality of the good ol' leveraction.

[Tamlin]

Man, I'm so confused. Half of you guys think the 45-70 is the be-all, end-all gun that can take anything; the other half think it's a meager gun at best, suitable only for deer or target buffalo at point blank range. I guess I'm in the fringe 5% who think it's a decent all-around gun for almost anything, not great but not bad, maybe more for self-defense of aggressive animals, but certainly better to carry than a .357 mag rifle.

[Maverick223]

Originally Posted by saturno_v

Again, you gotta be kidding right??

Velocity has everything to do with pressure....you can have a higher pressure round with a smaller case capacity being slower than a lower pressure one with significant higher capacity (for example comparing the 308 to a 30-06) but if you have two rounds of identical or nearly identical case capacity and one is higher pressure, the high pressure one will always develop higher velocity.....higher pressure = higher temperature = higher sound speed in that gas = faster pressure wave propagation.......ballistic 101...

With regards to the same case size AND caliber of bore, that is true, HOWEVER you can have a very large, low pressure cartridge. For example the .416 Rigby is an enormous case at relatively low pressure (about 47kpsi) with ballistics comparable to the new .416Ruger which has a much smaller case volume and higher pressure (55kpsi). If you have enough powder in the case you can make it fly as fast as you like, with as high or low of pressure if you like. A high pressure cartridge will have a shorter action (typical), and be more efficient. A low pressure cartridge will be less apt to stick in the chamber, will have a greater barrel life, and will be more forgiving with regards to reloading. Both have their place and advantages, there is a notch in my gun safe for a few of each.

Originally Posted by saturno_v

So to me you were implying that the break action rifles are weaker than the average 45-70 action...which is not true.

NO, I am saying that of the actions chambered in .45-70Govt. (no other cartridge), the break action is amongst the weakest designs. With regards to dangerous game doubles, don't believe that the size of the cartridge requires a more robust rifle, the design of the rifle is primarily a result of the pressure of the cartridge, however the trust block or bolt must be designed based upon the energy of the round and not the pressure. Basically the breach must be thicker for a larger caliber cartridge (and/or larger base) at the same pressure due to the surface area. Also, as I have stated in an earlier post, there are break action 7mm Magnums (as well as other magnum offerings) that are in no way weak, as they operate at high pressure.

[saturno_v]

Maverick

The same double rifle models chambered for the Nitro Express rounds usually are also chambered for the 375 H&H and 458 WM which are high pressure cartridges.

Actually there are 2 models from H&H which are chambered from the 7 mm Magnum to the enormous 600 NE...well over $100K for one rifle....

With regards to the same case size AND caliber of bore, that is true...

I mentioned in one of my previous post the fact that the overbore ratio may be a factor in velocity

However when the values (pressure and bullet weight) are very close, the different overboring ratio between the different cartridges may be a factor...

[Maverick223]

The same double rifle models chambered for the Nitro Express rounds usually are also chambered for the 375 H&H and 458 WM which are high pressure cartridges.

I have little doubts, most doubles are well over-designed...as they should be. I wouldn't want a double .470NE to have any trouble even if the pressures are a little high, the weather is hot and sticky, and I am staring down an animal that wishes me a bad day...over-design is a good thing, but not typically the case with break action .45-70 rifles (generally cheap single shots not designed or intended for the pursuit of dangerous game).