At what point are you considered too mentally unstable?

[lobo9er]

i might add theres an awful lot of "bi-polar" and depressed collecting S.S.I. because they "cant" work, good use of tax dollars, oops side tracked

[chaim]

do you know if there is a Legal definition (IQ requirement specifically) for mental retardation? I don't, but if this guy is 10 points below that line, if it exists, then he would appear to be fully "with it" but stupid when he would in fact be "handicapped".

Here are the IQ qualifications according to the WAIS (Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale), which is probably the most used IQ test in existence:

Very Superior 130 and above, 2.2% of the population
Superior 120-129, 6.7% of the population
High Average 110-119, 16.1% of the population
Average 90-109, 50.0% of the population
Low Average 80-89, 16.1% of the population
Borderline 70-79, 6.7% of the population
Extremely Low 69 and below, 2.2% of the population

Note that there is no "Retardation" or "Mental Retardation" category.

Here is what the DSM-IV says:
Borderline Intellectual Functioning IQ 71-84
Mild Mental Retardation IQ 50-55 to approximately 70
Moderate Retardation IQ 35-40 to 50-55
Severe Mental Retardation IQ 20-25 to 35-40
Profound Mental Retardation IQ below 20 or 25

So according to the DSM mild mental retardation is an IQ score of 70 or below. I doubt you'll find a "legal definition" since it is a term primarily used professionally by mental health professionals (as an Axis II diagnosis) and by educators. In fact, the education profession is getting away from the term since it doesn't really tell you much about a person (low cognitive ability would be a more appropriate term).

I don't say that mental retardation is or should be a dis qualifier (I have a cousin who my aunt says tests about 10 points above learning disabled)

What your aunt says is extremely ignorant and nonsensical, and frankly, what does a learning disability have to do with mental retardation? LDs and MR are not related or similar in any way. Testing "10 points above learning disabled" makes no sense. A learning disability is NOT an IQ score, it is not an IQ score below a certain number. In fact, most people with a diagnosed learning disability score ABOVE average in IQ. A learning disability is a neurological disorder where, due to processing issues, a person performs below where you would expect based on their IQ score. While you can have people who score below average who are also learning disabled, you also have quite a few who score above average (based on their history in school, many experts suspect Einstein, Woodrow Wilson, Thomas Edison, and Winston Churchill, among many others, were learning disabled). I have a student (I'm a special ed teacher) who has an IQ score that puts him well into the range where MENSA would love to have him (WELL above the Very Superior cut off on the WAIS) who is learning disabled. I score above 97 or 98% of the population (in the Superior to Very Superior range on the WAIS) and I too have a learning disability (dyslexia). It has nothing to do with a low intelligence and to imply or state outright that it is related to low intelligence is outright insulting.

i might add theres an awful lot of "bi-polar" and depressed collecting S.S.I. because they "cant" work, good use of tax dollars, oops side tracked

Yes, there are a lot of people with severe bipolar disorder and major depressive disorder who are unable to work. How many have you met? How many do you know? I used to work in a psych hospital with many such patients, I am a special ed teacher who works with many Emotionally Disordered students (several with bipolar and major depression over the past few years) and I have a friend with severe bipolar. I can tell you that these diseases can certainly affect your ability to work and hold a job. By your implied cynicism of the idea (and cynicism of the existence of bipolar with your putting it into quotes) I'm guessing you probably have never met anyone who is seriously mentally ill.

[scythefwd]

chaim,
I can only say what she has told us. She explained that the school system has a cutoff IQ score to get into special education and his IQ test put him a few points above that cutoff. He isn't bright, and he does have issues learning things (only certain topics like reading though, math comes much more easily for him). My point, which was sidestepped to point out I used a term wrong in a technical sense even if I used it as a colloqualism, is that a person with an extremely low Iq to the point of being considered retarded by the DSM-IV may merely appear to be extremely stupid when there is possibly something else in play. How many people that fall into that IQ <= 70 also have other mental or physical handicaps that may not be observable to an outsider? That is an honest question. I don't know, and I would like to see if the IQ <= 70 correlates to an increased appearance of other mental instabilities or chemical imbalances like bipolar, schitzophrenia, or hyperreality.

[scythefwd]

cosmoline - How existential of you. Nothing is real? I know that if I pull the trigger and have my gun pointed at someone that they will be injured or dead. Don't believe me? There are enough in the morgues to perform a case study if you wish. Someone who thinks it will be like a video game (easiest example.. I DO NOT believe that games make people violent) and the person will respawn elsewhere doesn't need to be behind a trigger.

As to personal - If I feel the person is out of touch.. you can bet my guns will to out of reach. If the person is so far out of touch that he has been officially declared so and is on meds to control it, yes.. codify it that he is unable to own a firearm. One missed dose of the medication is all it takes for someone to die. I know I am harsher on this topic than many... but it is personal to me. How many people can say they knew more than one person shot before their senior year of high school? I am all for people having guns... but I am aware that crazy people do exist and they do sometimes miss a dose.

[chaim]

I can only say what she has told us. She explained that the school system has a cutoff IQ score to get into special education and his IQ test put him a few points above that cutoff. He isn't bright, and he does have issues learning things (only certain topics like reading though, math comes much more easily for him).

She probably misunderstood since many special ed conditions have nothing to do with low IQ. Maybe he was tested for low cognitive ability and found to be a tad too high. However, an IQ cut-off for LD, ED or Autism Spectrum Disorders would make no sense (and be illegal to have the cut-off for services) since you can have a high IQ and still have these disorders and need assistance.

Further, I know you were just repeating what she said. But please don't use that as a defense and continue to repeat what she said. To erroneously refer to learning disabilities and low cognitive ability as if they are the same or related is not just incorrect but it is offensive (for good reason) to those of us with a learning disability.

How many people that fall into that IQ <= 70 also have other mental or physical handicaps that may not be observable to an outsider?

Depending upon the reason a person has a low IQ score there are some physical ailments that often appear alongside low cognitive ability.

I would like to see if the IQ <= 70 correlates to an increased appearance of other mental instabilities or chemical imbalances like bipolar, schitzophrenia, or hyperreality

Actually, for many psychiatric disorders the correlation is just the opposite. They are correlated in many cases with normal or even high IQ.

[lobo9er]

chaim very good picking up the cynicism. i have known enough to know alot of the ones i have met and know are getting a free ride off tax dollars, when in fact they are healthy adults that can work. unfortunatly people have problems and for the vast majority of them more drugs aren't going to help. Thats my opinion your welcomed to yours. Just because a doctors says so doesnt mean its right. drugs come and go that are "safe" and become "unsafe" a couple years later.

[rainbowbob]

unfortunatly people have problems and for the vast majority of them more drugs aren't going to help. Thats my opinion your welcomed to yours.

Okaayyy...So unless you have an opinion that is on-topic - why don't you start your own thread?

[Cosmoline]

. Someone who thinks it will be like a video game (easiest example.. I DO NOT believe that games make people violent) and the person will respawn elsewhere doesn't need to be behind a trigger.

Again, who gets to decide that and on what basis? People of certain faiths believe that we do in fact "respawn elsewhere." So are they to be barred?

[miket]

Ok, how this is getting ludicrous!

[scythefwd]

cosmo - If you can show me that respawning (not reincarnation where you come back as something different) fully whole occurs, I will accept that it happens. Till then we will have to disagree on that possibility.

[rondog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuaBerkuQwA