Ithaca 1911a1 British Proofed

351 WINCHESTER · November 3, 2009, 08:36 PM

I have a 1911a1 with British proofs. Serial no. 1442xxx.
Gun has not been refinished and shows numerous battle scars, but no rust.

Any idea as to appx. value? Should I sell it now or hold on to it to get a better price?

Oro · November 4, 2009, 02:32 AM

A big determiner of price on UK service guns is caliber - is it .45 acp or .455 Webley?

cyclopsshooter · November 4, 2009, 02:41 AM

pics

**Dr.Rob** · November 4, 2009, 04:09 AM

I'd hang onto it. Show us pics, condition is everything.

kanook · November 4, 2009, 10:31 AM

need pics of firearm and all the stamps on it.

351 WINCHESTER · November 4, 2009, 01:11 PM

It's .45acp and has all the correct markings as verified by a knowledgeble 1911 collector. It's not rusted but looks like it was thrown into a pickle barrel with a bunch of other guns as it has a lot of scratches. The finish is original, but I guess the Brits. didn't take care of it or it saw a lot of service.

It does not say "not English made" as some do. I really don't need the money now and I am at my son's mercy to take pictures and post them.

Thank's for any help.

**Dr.Rob** · November 4, 2009, 02:11 PM

If you don't really need the money hang onto it.

Oro · November 4, 2009, 06:12 PM

Without pics I'll lay out the following observations:

1) The only british-proofed 1911's I've seen draw substantial premiums are .455 models.
2) Sounds like "fair" condition to be charitable, but otherwise correct (we'll assume).

So I would price it as other "beater" but correct WWII 1911s at about $500.

I'm not an appraiser, but that's what I see guns in that condition do in .45acp. It may have scarcity value I'm not aware of, of course.

alistaire · November 4, 2009, 06:31 PM

Why would you sell a working 1911?

**Dr.Rob** · November 4, 2009, 07:08 PM

I'm still looking around for recently sold ones to give you a ball park number.

Clermont · November 5, 2009, 08:10 AM

Commercial British proof marks are applied to all firearms that come into England, even if they are in transit to another nation. These proof marks are also applied to British military weapons released into the commercial trade. Having British proof marks only means a firearm was in England, in the commercial trade, requiring proofing by law. In the 1950s and 60s, the U.S. firm Interarmco, which later became Interarms, began acquiring enormous amounts of military weapons throughout the world. Sam Cummings, owner of Interarmco, had a warehouse in Manchester England where all these firearms were shipped to, for inspection and refurbishing, before exporting to the U.S. where they were sold, through mailorder, to American sportsmen and collectors. All these guns left England with British proof marks. So, it is more than likely, without additional information, that your Colt 1911A1 was not a WWII Lend-Lease pistol. If your pistol was proofed at the Birmingham Proof House, a mark which is a crown over BNP, there will be another mark containing crossed lances with letters on either side and a number beneath. The two letters will reveal the year the firearms was proofed. If your Colt has this marking, called a view mark, and you post the letters, I or someone else can tell you the year of proofing.

Jim Keenan · November 5, 2009, 03:29 PM

I think I will be a joker and advise that if you find an Ithaca in .455 Webley Auto caliber, hang onto it. It is the only one. (Colt made their commercial Government Model on contract for the British c. 1915 in .455 Webley Auto caliber; the cartridge was obsolete in service by WWII.)

Jim

Jon Coppenbarger · November 6, 2009, 06:24 AM

I recently sold a colt like yours but with the not english made marks present also.
I priced them the same as any other 1911-a1 from wwII. I let the buyers determine if the markings add or subtrack to the value.

I believe at least to me it adds to it. one other poster gave you some good facts toward your pistol as when and why they were marked. from my understanding most of the not english made marks were stopped in either the early to mid 1950,s and that was on the usgi made firearms. I have had several of them over the years and the last one mentioned above was in like 95% condition.
as far as all of them being refinished maybe later ones but I have seen alot of them still in the original craft box with magazines and the box serial numbered to the firearm in new condition.
it seems the ones I have seen were mostly in the 1943 range of numbers but that is only from what I have personally seen only.
I even had a like new m1 garand from nov of 1941 marked the same. it still had the original parts with every thing correct down to the firing pin and cover over the screw on the front sight. packed with cosmoline also.

as far as pricing unless it is rusted to pieces a $500 price tag is a little to low.
if all the parts are the correct ithica ones for the time the 1911 ws made they alone will bring good value for folks trying to put most of the ones from dcm release of the 50's and 60's and the chinese release ones from the 80's back into origin condition. most lend leases were coming back correct.

if it is in bad cosmetic condition just use it as a shooter . if the original 1911a1 finish is on the gun and more than 50% condition I would leave it alone. If below that you may consider a professional repark as alot of them were rearsenaled after wwII ended anyway and it would put it in those price ranges.

Clermont · November 6, 2009, 10:32 AM

The way the two British proof houses, Birmingham and London, proofed marked firearms, changed with the introduction of the Rules of Proof of 1954 which went into effect on February 1, 1955. The most obvious change was the elimination of the "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" mark placed on foreign made firearms. So, if you have a British proofed firearm not manufactured in Britain, you can determine if it was proofed before or after February 1, 1955. If you have a Birmingham proofed firearm, discussed in my earlier post, the exact year of proofing can be determined by the two letter code found on the "view mark".

351 WINCHESTER · November 7, 2009, 09:38 PM

The letters on the view mark as best I can make out are 1 4 B or I 4 B. There is no rust on the gun whatsoever and it is correct as verified by 3 different 1911 collectors. The only problem is the finish which has numerous scratches.

Clermont · November 7, 2009, 10:58 PM

Having a "view mark" indicates your pistol was proofed at the Birmingham Proof House. Disregarding the number 4, an inspectors mark, the year code "IB" doesn't exist. Re check the "I" marking which was never used. It must be a partial, or obliterated, striking for another letter. However, the letter "B" is correct. With the second letter being a "B", and without the "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" marking, your Colt 1911A1 was proofed in the years from 1955 to 1974. If you can determine the correct first letter of the year code, I can tell you the exact year of proofing.

351 WINCHESTER · November 7, 2009, 11:29 PM

I rechecked it. If it isn't an I or 1 than someone make a mistake.

By the way it's not a Colt ( I wish it was), but an Ithaca made in 1944.

Clermont · November 7, 2009, 11:44 PM

Here are the Birmingham Proof House "view mark" codes beginning with 1955.

FB - 1955
GB - 1956
HB - 1957
JB - 1958
KB - 1959
LB - 1960
MB - 1961
NB - 1962
OB - 1963
PB - 1964
QB - 1965
RB - 1966
SB - 1967
TB - 1968
UB - 1969
VB - 1970
WB - 1971
XB - 1972
YB - 1973
ZB - 1974

351 WINCHESTER · November 8, 2009, 12:09 AM

Well I looked again at different angles and with different sources of light. If it's not an I then I need glasses. Maybe it was stamped a little off center or the stamp was worn out. I know one thing. I'm getting a much needed education. Thanks to all.

My youngest son just got home and his eyes are better than mine. He said it was definitely an I or a 1. It really doesn't look like it was struck off center either.

Do we possibly have a mystery proof?

Jim Keenan · November 8, 2009, 12:33 AM

Most of those guns were brought back in the 1953-1963 time frame. Importation (re-entry in this case) of military surplus weapons was banned by GCA 68, but British sources had dried up before that.

Jim

351 WINCHESTER · November 8, 2009, 09:18 PM

I sincerely appreciate all of ya'lls information and input.

Thank's so much.

sidibear · Yesterday, 06:23 AM

http://www.gunproof.com/

Its about 3 miles from me. I have been there twice to get a new barrel tested.

November 3, 2009, 08:36 PM	#1
351 WINCHESTER Member Join Date: March 19, 2007 Location: NE FL Posts: 1,611	Ithaca 1911a1 British Proofed I have a 1911a1 with British proofs. Serial no. 1442xxx. Gun has not been refinished and shows numerous battle scars, but no rust. Any idea as to appx. value? Should I sell it now or hold on to it to get a better price? __________________ "Beware the man who wears a belt and suspenders"

November 4, 2009, 02:32 AM	#2
Oro Member Join Date: September 22, 2007 Location: WA state Posts: 2,519	A big determiner of price on UK service guns is caliber - is it .45 acp or .455 Webley? __________________ pm or em me if you have a leather scabbard for a 20" 30-30 carbine for sale or trade! Last edited by Oro; November 4, 2009 at 05:46 AM.

November 4, 2009, 02:41 AM	#3
cyclopsshooter Member Join Date: May 13, 2009 Location: Ellensburg, WA Posts: 676	pics __________________ The number of people who mix up the words "than" and "then" boggles the mind... (Than - comparisons) (Then - timing)

November 4, 2009, 04:09 AM	#4
Dr.Rob Moderator Join Date: December 23, 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 6,740	I'd hang onto it. Show us pics, condition is everything. __________________ Former TFL Moderator. "Guess you broke into the WRONG rec room!" ;)

November 4, 2009, 10:31 AM	#5
kanook Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Posts: 1,161	need pics of firearm and all the stamps on it. __________________ If firearms cause crime, mine are defective

November 4, 2009, 01:11 PM	#6
351 WINCHESTER Member Join Date: March 19, 2007 Location: NE FL Posts: 1,611	It's .45acp and has all the correct markings as verified by a knowledgeble 1911 collector. It's not rusted but looks like it was thrown into a pickle barrel with a bunch of other guns as it has a lot of scratches. The finish is original, but I guess the Brits. didn't take care of it or it saw a lot of service. It does not say "not English made" as some do. I really don't need the money now and I am at my son's mercy to take pictures and post them. Thank's for any help. __________________ "Beware the man who wears a belt and suspenders"

November 4, 2009, 02:11 PM	#7
Dr.Rob Moderator Join Date: December 23, 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 6,740	If you don't really need the money hang onto it. __________________ Former TFL Moderator. "Guess you broke into the WRONG rec room!" ;)

November 4, 2009, 06:12 PM	#8
Oro Member Join Date: September 22, 2007 Location: WA state Posts: 2,519	Without pics I'll lay out the following observations: 1) The only british-proofed 1911's I've seen draw substantial premiums are .455 models. 2) Sounds like "fair" condition to be charitable, but otherwise correct (we'll assume). So I would price it as other "beater" but correct WWII 1911s at about $500. I'm not an appraiser, but that's what I see guns in that condition do in .45acp. It may have scarcity value I'm not aware of, of course. __________________ pm or em me if you have a leather scabbard for a 20" 30-30 carbine for sale or trade!

November 4, 2009, 06:31 PM	#9
alistaire Member Join Date: May 22, 2008 Posts: 238	Why would you sell a working 1911?

November 4, 2009, 07:08 PM	#10
Dr.Rob Moderator Join Date: December 23, 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 6,740	I'm still looking around for recently sold ones to give you a ball park number. __________________ Former TFL Moderator. "Guess you broke into the WRONG rec room!" ;)

November 5, 2009, 08:10 AM	#11
Clermont Member Join Date: May 22, 2008 Posts: 128	Commercial British proof marks are applied to all firearms that come into England, even if they are in transit to another nation. These proof marks are also applied to British military weapons released into the commercial trade. Having British proof marks only means a firearm was in England, in the commercial trade, requiring proofing by law. In the 1950s and 60s, the U.S. firm Interarmco, which later became Interarms, began acquiring enormous amounts of military weapons throughout the world. Sam Cummings, owner of Interarmco, had a warehouse in Manchester England where all these firearms were shipped to, for inspection and refurbishing, before exporting to the U.S. where they were sold, through mailorder, to American sportsmen and collectors. All these guns left England with British proof marks. So, it is more than likely, without additional information, that your Colt 1911A1 was not a WWII Lend-Lease pistol. If your pistol was proofed at the Birmingham Proof House, a mark which is a crown over BNP, there will be another mark containing crossed lances with letters on either side and a number beneath. The two letters will reveal the year the firearms was proofed. If your Colt has this marking, called a view mark, and you post the letters, I or someone else can tell you the year of proofing.

November 5, 2009, 03:29 PM	#12
Jim Keenan Member Join Date: December 31, 2002 Posts: 8,813	I think I will be a joker and advise that if you find an Ithaca in .455 Webley Auto caliber, hang onto it. It is the only one. (Colt made their commercial Government Model on contract for the British c. 1915 in .455 Webley Auto caliber; the cartridge was obsolete in service by WWII.) Jim

November 6, 2009, 06:24 AM	#13
Jon Coppenbarger Member Join Date: December 25, 2002 Location: co Posts: 789	I recently sold a colt like yours but with the not english made marks present also. I priced them the same as any other 1911-a1 from wwII. I let the buyers determine if the markings add or subtrack to the value. I believe at least to me it adds to it. one other poster gave you some good facts toward your pistol as when and why they were marked. from my understanding most of the not english made marks were stopped in either the early to mid 1950,s and that was on the usgi made firearms. I have had several of them over the years and the last one mentioned above was in like 95% condition. as far as all of them being refinished maybe later ones but I have seen alot of them still in the original craft box with magazines and the box serial numbered to the firearm in new condition. it seems the ones I have seen were mostly in the 1943 range of numbers but that is only from what I have personally seen only. I even had a like new m1 garand from nov of 1941 marked the same. it still had the original parts with every thing correct down to the firing pin and cover over the screw on the front sight. packed with cosmoline also. as far as pricing unless it is rusted to pieces a $500 price tag is a little to low. if all the parts are the correct ithica ones for the time the 1911 ws made they alone will bring good value for folks trying to put most of the ones from dcm release of the 50's and 60's and the chinese release ones from the 80's back into origin condition. most lend leases were coming back correct. if it is in bad cosmetic condition just use it as a shooter . if the original 1911a1 finish is on the gun and more than 50% condition I would leave it alone. If below that you may consider a professional repark as alot of them were rearsenaled after wwII ended anyway and it would put it in those price ranges.

November 6, 2009, 10:32 AM	#14
Clermont Member Join Date: May 22, 2008 Posts: 128	The way the two British proof houses, Birmingham and London, proofed marked firearms, changed with the introduction of the Rules of Proof of 1954 which went into effect on February 1, 1955. The most obvious change was the elimination of the "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" mark placed on foreign made firearms. So, if you have a British proofed firearm not manufactured in Britain, you can determine if it was proofed before or after February 1, 1955. If you have a Birmingham proofed firearm, discussed in my earlier post, the exact year of proofing can be determined by the two letter code found on the "view mark".

November 7, 2009, 09:38 PM	#15
351 WINCHESTER Member Join Date: March 19, 2007 Location: NE FL Posts: 1,611	The letters on the view mark as best I can make out are 1 4 B or I 4 B. There is no rust on the gun whatsoever and it is correct as verified by 3 different 1911 collectors. The only problem is the finish which has numerous scratches. __________________ "Beware the man who wears a belt and suspenders"

November 7, 2009, 10:58 PM	#16
Clermont Member Join Date: May 22, 2008 Posts: 128	Having a "view mark" indicates your pistol was proofed at the Birmingham Proof House. Disregarding the number 4, an inspectors mark, the year code "IB" doesn't exist. Re check the "I" marking which was never used. It must be a partial, or obliterated, striking for another letter. However, the letter "B" is correct. With the second letter being a "B", and without the "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" marking, your Colt 1911A1 was proofed in the years from 1955 to 1974. If you can determine the correct first letter of the year code, I can tell you the exact year of proofing. Last edited by Clermont; November 7, 2009 at 11:52 PM.

November 7, 2009, 11:29 PM	#17
351 WINCHESTER Member Join Date: March 19, 2007 Location: NE FL Posts: 1,611	I rechecked it. If it isn't an I or 1 than someone make a mistake. By the way it's not a Colt ( I wish it was), but an Ithaca made in 1944. __________________ "Beware the man who wears a belt and suspenders"

November 7, 2009, 11:44 PM	#18
Clermont Member Join Date: May 22, 2008 Posts: 128	Here are the Birmingham Proof House "view mark" codes beginning with 1955. FB - 1955 GB - 1956 HB - 1957 JB - 1958 KB - 1959 LB - 1960 MB - 1961 NB - 1962 OB - 1963 PB - 1964 QB - 1965 RB - 1966 SB - 1967 TB - 1968 UB - 1969 VB - 1970 WB - 1971 XB - 1972 YB - 1973 ZB - 1974

November 8, 2009, 12:09 AM	#19
351 WINCHESTER Member Join Date: March 19, 2007 Location: NE FL Posts: 1,611	Well I looked again at different angles and with different sources of light. If it's not an I then I need glasses. Maybe it was stamped a little off center or the stamp was worn out. I know one thing. I'm getting a much needed education. Thanks to all. My youngest son just got home and his eyes are better than mine. He said it was definitely an I or a 1. It really doesn't look like it was struck off center either. Do we possibly have a mystery proof? __________________ "Beware the man who wears a belt and suspenders"

November 8, 2009, 12:33 AM	#20
Jim Keenan Member Join Date: December 31, 2002 Posts: 8,813	Most of those guns were brought back in the 1953-1963 time frame. Importation (re-entry in this case) of military surplus weapons was banned by GCA 68, but British sources had dried up before that. Jim

November 8, 2009, 09:18 PM	#21
351 WINCHESTER Member Join Date: March 19, 2007 Location: NE FL Posts: 1,611	I sincerely appreciate all of ya'lls information and input. Thank's so much. __________________ "Beware the man who wears a belt and suspenders"

Yesterday, 06:23 AM	#22
sidibear Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 20	http://www.gunproof.com/ Its about 3 miles from me. I have been there twice to get a new barrel tested.

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