Defensive Ammunition 101 - Page 2

Maple_City_Woodsman · August 16, 2011, 08:13 PM

I have no desire to argue semantics.

My thanks to those of you who managed to support the arguments you made while answering my questions, especially Lee Lapin who has been most helpful.

I did not intend to step on toes, but it has happened anyway. My apologies to those who got their feelings hurt. I'm bowing out of this discussion, to keep it 'High Road'.

**Fred Fuller** · August 16, 2011, 08:22 PM

Winchester PDX-1 .410 shells ... .410 derringer

If it holds any kind of pattern with all the stuff the Winchester shell is loaded with (shot plus "defense discs"), it should probably do about as well as anything else. I'd guess you only have about 1/2" to 1" of barrel in front of the shotgun shell in a derringer, and that's not going to help matters much with either velocity or patterning. I've never shot one to pattern with anything at all, but it's my guess the short barrel will prove to be your biggest disadvantage with that particular gun. But only experimentation can answer those questions - shoot various loads and test both penetration and patterning to see what you can expect out of it.

hth,

lpl

**Walkalong** · August 16, 2011, 08:24 PM

I have no sympathy for thugs who rob, (delted a word for forcible, non-consensual sexual relations), maim, kill, etc, and if in stopping them I kill them, so be it. They put themselves in harms way.

The idea is to stop the attack. Sometimes killing is required to do so. It is completely up to the thug who is committing the crime. If when they are told to freeze, drop any weapon, and lay face down, they choose to do so, their lives are not in jeopardy. If instead they choose to attack, they take their health and well being into their own hands.

What reason do I need to believe that? It speaks for its self. If you believe differently, OK.

If you truly believe what you say, debate it, don't bow out. AC

lobo9er · August 16, 2011, 11:14 PM

Quote:

MCW, 00 spreads less than smaller pellets, all else equal. And, if I need to shoot through my refrigerator,00's the better choice. Go ask your local police what they use. Chances are it's 00.

its not that I disagree with you its just that 00 buck gets discussed alot here and this thread isnt bringing anything new to the table other than another conversation about 00 buck and possible a scenerio.

Rail Driver · August 17, 2011, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Lapin

The aim is to stop the attack, period.

Lee, this is tremendously good advice. Do you mind if I save your post for future reference?

Apple a Day · August 17, 2011, 10:34 PM

If you're asking about a derringer then I think that's a whole different animal (as compared to an 18"+ bbl longarm).
I won't attempt to put words om MB's mouth but I believe he's addressing the larger guns.
If I'm in a self defense situation I'm sticking with A)simple and B)most effective. Simple 00 fits both those criteria. Woodsman, I understand what you are saying but I agree with MB's point:

Quote:

00 also patterns tighter than the smaller stuff, all else equal. ..
Some folks like spread, thinking it can make up for bad aim under stressful conditions.
Others, including me, prefer a small pattern putting ALL that energy into the right place.
Forensic experts tell me that the most effective load will have all the pellets in 5-8 inches.

I was recently trying out some different rounds and remarked the huge difference in spread between some 00 and some birdshot at the same range from the same barrel.
I'm no expert and I'm not sure how comfortable I am trying to work with a less-than-most-effective tool especially when my life is at stake. It's not that I want to kill anyone, it's just that I really, really, really don't want to get killed myself. I think I can get that idea across to a jury.
Everybody has their own opinions/methods. Good luck whichever you choose. Stay safe.

bushmaster1313 · August 18, 2011, 11:24 PM

Do the pellets in 8 pellet LE reduced recoil 00 travel about as fast as the full power 9 pellet 00?

**Fred Fuller** · August 19, 2011, 12:18 AM

Factory websites should provide muzzle velocity of pretty much any load the company offers. I've only used one 8 00 pellet load, and that was red hull Hornady TAP (full velocity, 1600 FPS, http://www.hornadyle.com/products/mo...6&sID=82&pID=1). The blue hull version is the RR 8 pellet 00 load, listed at 1100 FPS ( http://www.hornadyle.com/products/mo...6&sID=81&pID=1 ).

fwiw,

lpl

Jesse 8 · August 31, 2011, 01:12 PM

What are opinions on #1 buck? I think 12-15 pellets of .30 caliber would be quite convincing and possibly penetrate dry wall slightly less than straight 00 buck

Dave McCracken · August 31, 2011, 02:39 PM

On paper, 1 looks very good. But, some of us who have been doing this for a long time have yet to find a load of 1 buck that patterns tightly without flyers.

Inside, that may not be a problem due to proximity. But, we can never be completely sure we will not need a shotgun outside during crisis points.

In the scenarios we may have to deal with, collateral damage is unacceptable.

bratch · August 31, 2011, 05:50 PM

Federal is/has came out with a FliteControl #1B LE132-1B. DocGKR has tested it and is getting one hole groups at 7 yards. I'll be really interested to get my hands on some when I see it in the wild.

Strykervet · August 31, 2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bushmaster1313

Do the pellets in 8 pellet LE reduced recoil 00 travel about as fast as the full power 9 pellet 00?

The Winchester LE reduced recoil is much slower, but I think it has 9 pellets. Around 1090fps? The Hornady TAP FPD (my favorite) has 8 pellets and chugs along at about 1600fps. Oh yeah! I'll trade that one pellet in exchange for the rest going 500fps. faster. More recoil than the Winchester, but much less than Federal magnums.

Oh yeah, the Hornady also patterns better than anything else I've tried. Very tight, all of them go evenly in a saucer or desert plate at close to moderate range. The wad is the secret. I think Federal uses something similar. With proper shot placement, this is devastating. The wost patterns I've seen come from Fiocchi and other cheaper loads that use cardboard wads. Uneven, erratic, and wide. Some people like this though?

Strykervet · August 31, 2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse 8

What are opinions on #1 buck? I think 12-15 pellets of .30 caliber would be quite convincing and possibly penetrate dry wall slightly less than straight 00 buck

#1 buck is very good. Just between #4 and 00... Some think 00 is overkill and some think #4 is underkill, so #1 should be just right. Ayoob I think is a big proponent of #1. I don't use it because of availability, but I think he may just be right. I like all three, plus 000, my favorite. I just wish it came in different flavors like the 00 does. A low recoil 3" would be awesome.

Seals used #4 to break ambushes in Vietnam with full auto shotguns. 200+ pellets in the air in a second or two. The Winchester XX load, 3" mag, has 41 or 42 pellets! It also has the most recoil of any shotgun shell I've fired since I was 8.

Strykervet · August 31, 2011, 06:22 PM

I really like buck and ball, the concept anyway. But there isn't a really well designed one out there. There is the Centurion, one ball and six buck (00? I think there are ones with #4 and #1 too). Not the best pattern. Then there is the Winchester buck and slug. Very promising looking, it has a rifled slug UNDER three 00 buck. It patterns like you'd expect: one slug in the middle with a triad of buck around the slug. The catch? Probably because the slug is under the buck, it tends to spread very rapidly. You will have a flier in distances over a few yards. The slug also gets a little deformed through firing. But a little over 1000fps, this load would be a fight ender. I really would like to see one done with the buck under the slug and engineered to pattern tight.

beatledog7 · August 31, 2011, 06:46 PM

In a self defense / home defense scenario, there is a subtle but critical difference between "stop the attack" and the end game I believe is the right one: "neutralize the aggressor."

"Stop the attack," which can be accomplished in many ways including simply scaring the bad guy away, and you might do nothing more than set the attacker on your less well protected neighbor. "Neutralize the aggressor" means render him unable to continue his agressive activity. Not unwilling, not somewhere else. Unable. That is the desired outcome of the encounter.

To the original question, as I recall it, that's 00 buck in as large a dose as it takes.

worldtraveler119 · September 6, 2011, 05:43 AM

Would one expect to have penetration problems using #1 if the attacker was wearing a lot of clothing or light jacket/hoodie?

Pfletch83 · September 8, 2011, 09:46 PM

I'm thinking about '0000' buck loaded in a 3-inch shell for defenisive use.

I know there is a company that offers a three pellet load but I wonder if four can be placed inside the 3-inch shell.

Could make the .410 even better for SD use and should be able to put a lot of wallop on four legged ner do wells.

farscott · September 9, 2011, 06:33 PM

My thought is that part of choosing the proper ammo for an HD shotgun is considering what happens to those pellets that miss the target. In other words, the choice for a rural homeowner who knows his "misses" are going to hit nothing but his own brick home may be different from the urban apartment dweller with neighbors (much) less than a foot of drywall away. When I am in urban homes, I choose #4 buck due to its lesser penetration. At my rural home, I choose #00 or #01 buck.

Strykervet · September 9, 2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pfletch83

I'm thinking about '0000' buck loaded in a 3-inch shell for defenisive use.

I know there is a company that offers a three pellet load but I wonder if four can be placed inside the 3-inch shell.

Could make the .410 even better for SD use and should be able to put a lot of wallop on four legged ner do wells.

Dixie Tri-Ball? That is way overkill. Anything over 00 will almost certainly over penetrate. 000 is good if you don't mind a mess and some patch work. 00, #1, and #4 are probably the best 12ga. defense loads, they are certainly the most popular.

I also seem to recall that the tri-ball is designed to punch one deep hole. They almost go in a line. They don't deform much either. A slug would probably do the same thing a tri-ball would at defensive distances.

I can't imagine anyone going with anything short of the Hornady TAP FPD 00. That stuff is just amazing. Saucer size groups, 8 holes, high velocity, reduced recoil. All in one package. Wow.

RhinoDefense · October 9, 2011, 12:02 AM

20ga can use #1 buckshot as I load a lot of it in the 20ga.

#1 buckshot is recommended over all other shot sizes by the IWBA, even 00 buck.

SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE · January 29, 2012, 10:48 AM

I keep my shotgun loaded with #4 buck for a couple reasons . 1st it patterned better in my gun than the 0 and 00 buck at ranges from 7 to 25 yards . 2nd I have seen hogs shot broadside with #4 from 25 yards with several pellets passing through . Also have any of you ever fired shot through a rifled shotgun barrel ? If you really want spread that is what you use ! Unfortunatly the effective range is radically reduced ! Pattern your guns at the intended distances ,then check at your estimated maximum range ! Kevin

RET50 · February 28, 2012, 11:55 PM

a
Amen to that! I had 29 years "on the job" and can well remember the calming effect that sound made by racking the slide on one of those 870 Wingmasters had on folks standing around with bad intentions on their mind.

RET50 · February 29, 2012, 12:07 AM

Kevin, There's a guy named Vang that does a heck of a business boring and reshaping the bore to internally choke 12 gauge barrels. They shoot unbelievably tight shot groups with buckshot even out at 25 yards. He has a website under his name and does a lot of work for police agencies. When I looked into it, you send him your shotgun barrel and turn over time was about a week. I don't remember his exact prices other than to say it was probably around $200 or slightly less.

beeb173 · May 8, 2012, 06:31 PM

I'm in favor of bird shot unless you live on a farm. In close quarters bird shot equals massive blood loss and maximum wound area.

gamestalker · May 11, 2012, 05:27 PM

Stopping the attack for me means, if, the threat is such I have no time to offer them an opportunity to surrender, I am going to take a shot that is amied at center mass using the shotgun or pistol most available, and loaded with ammunition that is certain to do it's job, even if it should result in the death of an armed criminal.

But I also live in a state that puts the burden of proof on LE, not the potential victim. Prior to our changes in SD laws in my state, if was an iffy situation in which LE did put the burden of proof upon the victim. Stand your ground comes to mind, and castle doctrin. I am by no means an expert, but since the changes have been made to our SD laws in my state, I have inquired, and been fully advised by an attorney that represents both the state and defense entities regarding where we stand as potential victims and lethal force. Now with these changes in place, it is not even necessary that a threat be armed with any weapon, but that if they refuse to back off or other wise retreat we are within our legal right to utilize lethal deadly force. Expert legal advice trumps a general opinion that may likely be based on old SD laws, or those of a less conservative entity. Bottom line, when my life, or that of a loved one is in danger of being physically harmed, I am not going to have any consideration for the degree of physical damage my firearm or ammunition may inflict, other than to say it will be of such degree to stop the threat with confidence.
GS

August 16, 2011, 08:22 PM	#27
Fred Fuller Moderator Join Date: March 26, 2004 Location: AL, NC Posts: 16,295	Winchester PDX-1 .410 shells ... .410 derringer If it holds any kind of pattern with all the stuff the Winchester shell is loaded with (shot plus "defense discs"), it should probably do about as well as anything else. I'd guess you only have about 1/2" to 1" of barrel in front of the shotgun shell in a derringer, and that's not going to help matters much with either velocity or patterning. I've never shot one to pattern with anything at all, but it's my guess the short barrel will prove to be your biggest disadvantage with that particular gun. But only experimentation can answer those questions - shoot various loads and test both penetration and patterning to see what you can expect out of it. hth, lpl __________________ MINDSET - SKILLSET - TOOLSET - IN THAT ORDER! -with props to COL John Boyd, USAF http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/john_boyd/

August 16, 2011, 08:24 PM	#28
Walkalong Moderator Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 29,591	I have no sympathy for thugs who rob, (delted a word for forcible, non-consensual sexual relations), maim, kill, etc, and if in stopping them I kill them, so be it. They put themselves in harms way. The idea is to stop the attack. Sometimes killing is required to do so. It is completely up to the thug who is committing the crime. If when they are told to freeze, drop any weapon, and lay face down, they choose to do so, their lives are not in jeopardy. If instead they choose to attack, they take their health and well being into their own hands. What reason do I need to believe that? It speaks for its self. If you believe differently, OK. If you truly believe what you say, debate it, don't bow out. AC __________________ Do you ever wonder why nobody ever robs the bag man for the mob? No, you don't. "Oh bother" said Pooh, as he chambered another round. Author unknown.

August 18, 2011, 11:24 PM	#32
bushmaster1313 Member Join Date: October 26, 2008 Location: Peoples Republik of New Jersey Posts: 3,307	Do the pellets in 8 pellet LE reduced recoil 00 travel about as fast as the full power 9 pellet 00? __________________ Vote Responsibly Buy American

August 19, 2011, 12:18 AM	#33
Fred Fuller Moderator Join Date: March 26, 2004 Location: AL, NC Posts: 16,295	Factory websites should provide muzzle velocity of pretty much any load the company offers. I've only used one 8 00 pellet load, and that was red hull Hornady TAP (full velocity, 1600 FPS, http://www.hornadyle.com/products/mo...6&sID=82&pID=1). The blue hull version is the RR 8 pellet 00 load, listed at 1100 FPS ( http://www.hornadyle.com/products/mo...6&sID=81&pID=1 ). fwiw, lpl __________________ MINDSET - SKILLSET - TOOLSET - IN THAT ORDER! -with props to COL John Boyd, USAF http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/john_boyd/

August 31, 2011, 05:50 PM	#36
bratch Member Join Date: April 15, 2004 Location: OKC Posts: 2,865	Federal is/has came out with a FliteControl #1B LE132-1B. DocGKR has tested it and is getting one hole groups at 7 yards. I'll be really interested to get my hands on some when I see it in the wild. __________________ God is great, Beer is good, and People are crazy

August 16, 2011, 08:13 PM	#26
Maple_City_Woodsman Member Join Date: June 15, 2011 Posts: 430	I have no desire to argue semantics. My thanks to those of you who managed to support the arguments you made while answering my questions, especially Lee Lapin who has been most helpful. I did not intend to step on toes, but it has happened anyway. My apologies to those who got their feelings hurt. I'm bowing out of this discussion, to keep it 'High Road'.

August 31, 2011, 01:12 PM	#34
Jesse 8 Member Join Date: August 7, 2011 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 64	What are opinions on #1 buck? I think 12-15 pellets of .30 caliber would be quite convincing and possibly penetrate dry wall slightly less than straight 00 buck

August 31, 2011, 02:39 PM	#35
Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: MD. Posts: 13,941	On paper, 1 looks very good. But, some of us who have been doing this for a long time have yet to find a load of 1 buck that patterns tightly without flyers. Inside, that may not be a problem due to proximity. But, we can never be completely sure we will not need a shotgun outside during crisis points. In the scenarios we may have to deal with, collateral damage is unacceptable.

August 31, 2011, 06:22 PM	#39
Strykervet member Join Date: November 16, 2010 Posts: 1,610	I really like buck and ball, the concept anyway. But there isn't a really well designed one out there. There is the Centurion, one ball and six buck (00? I think there are ones with #4 and #1 too). Not the best pattern. Then there is the Winchester buck and slug. Very promising looking, it has a rifled slug UNDER three 00 buck. It patterns like you'd expect: one slug in the middle with a triad of buck around the slug. The catch? Probably because the slug is under the buck, it tends to spread very rapidly. You will have a flier in distances over a few yards. The slug also gets a little deformed through firing. But a little over 1000fps, this load would be a fight ender. I really would like to see one done with the buck under the slug and engineered to pattern tight.

August 31, 2011, 06:46 PM	#40
beatledog7 Member Join Date: June 18, 2011 Location: Tidewater Posts: 4,127	In a self defense / home defense scenario, there is a subtle but critical difference between "stop the attack" and the end game I believe is the right one: "neutralize the aggressor." "Stop the attack," which can be accomplished in many ways including simply scaring the bad guy away, and you might do nothing more than set the attacker on your less well protected neighbor. "Neutralize the aggressor" means render him unable to continue his agressive activity. Not unwilling, not somewhere else. Unable. That is the desired outcome of the encounter. To the original question, as I recall it, that's 00 buck in as large a dose as it takes. __________________ "Please allow me to trade freedom for the appearance of security" is the surrender plea of the defeated. Last edited by beatledog7; August 31, 2011 at 07:13 PM.

September 6, 2011, 05:43 AM	#41
worldtraveler119 Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 8	Would one expect to have penetration problems using #1 if the attacker was wearing a lot of clothing or light jacket/hoodie?

September 8, 2011, 09:46 PM	#42
Pfletch83 member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Posts: 354	I'm thinking about '0000' buck loaded in a 3-inch shell for defenisive use. I know there is a company that offers a three pellet load but I wonder if four can be placed inside the 3-inch shell. Could make the .410 even better for SD use and should be able to put a lot of wallop on four legged ner do wells.

September 9, 2011, 06:33 PM	#43
farscott Member Join Date: December 29, 2002 Location: Athens, AL, and Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 1,403	My thought is that part of choosing the proper ammo for an HD shotgun is considering what happens to those pellets that miss the target. In other words, the choice for a rural homeowner who knows his "misses" are going to hit nothing but his own brick home may be different from the urban apartment dweller with neighbors (much) less than a foot of drywall away. When I am in urban homes, I choose #4 buck due to its lesser penetration. At my rural home, I choose #00 or #01 buck. __________________ Scott Megan Elizabeth, I miss you so much.

October 9, 2011, 12:02 AM	#45
RhinoDefense Member Join Date: July 2, 2010 Posts: 878	20ga can use #1 buckshot as I load a lot of it in the 20ga. #1 buckshot is recommended over all other shot sizes by the IWBA, even 00 buck. __________________ Rhino Munitions Nothing else hits like a Rhino.™ The best caliber for African dangerous game is accurate shot placement and good bullet performance.

January 29, 2012, 10:48 AM	#46
SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE Member Join Date: January 21, 2012 Location: South Florida Posts: 191	has anyone patterned their guns? I keep my shotgun loaded with #4 buck for a couple reasons . 1st it patterned better in my gun than the 0 and 00 buck at ranges from 7 to 25 yards . 2nd I have seen hogs shot broadside with #4 from 25 yards with several pellets passing through . Also have any of you ever fired shot through a rifled shotgun barrel ? If you really want spread that is what you use ! Unfortunatly the effective range is radically reduced ! Pattern your guns at the intended distances ,then check at your estimated maximum range ! Kevin

February 28, 2012, 11:55 PM	#47
RET50 Member Join Date: February 28, 2012 Location: Helderberg Mountains/Eastern N.y. State Posts: 2	a Amen to that! I had 29 years "on the job" and can well remember the calming effect that sound made by racking the slide on one of those 870 Wingmasters had on folks standing around with bad intentions on their mind.

February 29, 2012, 12:07 AM	#48
RET50 Member Join Date: February 28, 2012 Location: Helderberg Mountains/Eastern N.y. State Posts: 2	Kevin, There's a guy named Vang that does a heck of a business boring and reshaping the bore to internally choke 12 gauge barrels. They shoot unbelievably tight shot groups with buckshot even out at 25 yards. He has a website under his name and does a lot of work for police agencies. When I looked into it, you send him your shotgun barrel and turn over time was about a week. I don't remember his exact prices other than to say it was probably around $200 or slightly less.

May 8, 2012, 06:31 PM	#49
beeb173 Member Join Date: December 15, 2011 Location: michigan Posts: 124	I'm in favor of bird shot unless you live on a farm. In close quarters bird shot equals massive blood loss and maximum wound area.

May 11, 2012, 05:27 PM	#50
gamestalker Member Join Date: September 10, 2008 Location: SW Arizona Posts: 4,198	Stopping the attack for me means, if, the threat is such I have no time to offer them an opportunity to surrender, I am going to take a shot that is amied at center mass using the shotgun or pistol most available, and loaded with ammunition that is certain to do it's job, even if it should result in the death of an armed criminal. But I also live in a state that puts the burden of proof on LE, not the potential victim. Prior to our changes in SD laws in my state, if was an iffy situation in which LE did put the burden of proof upon the victim. Stand your ground comes to mind, and castle doctrin. I am by no means an expert, but since the changes have been made to our SD laws in my state, I have inquired, and been fully advised by an attorney that represents both the state and defense entities regarding where we stand as potential victims and lethal force. Now with these changes in place, it is not even necessary that a threat be armed with any weapon, but that if they refuse to back off or other wise retreat we are within our legal right to utilize lethal deadly force. Expert legal advice trumps a general opinion that may likely be based on old SD laws, or those of a less conservative entity. Bottom line, when my life, or that of a loved one is in danger of being physically harmed, I am not going to have any consideration for the degree of physical damage my firearm or ammunition may inflict, other than to say it will be of such degree to stop the threat with confidence. GS