12GA Rifle From HELL--

[hubel458]

If the Lee slug is partlu hollowbase it is the KEY slug.

We are working at getting a good proper size discarding sabot
made by someone. Will post it all over the net when they are ready
and where to get them. We will have the data also.Ed

[hubel458]

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.






Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.




Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

[turp81]

Hello, sorry to barge in so late in the post. However I just cannot find the infromation I need anywhere else.

II have a moss 835, 3 1/2mag with a fully rifled moss barrel (pretty thick walled).
I would like to make a 12ga from hell pump action. What loads do you suggest. I know it would be limeted to a 31/2 casing to fuction probarly. my goal is to reach 5,000 ft-lbs + safely.
Without blowing apart my shotty or face lol
to note: the moss 835 is built for the 3 1/2 factory 15,000 psi ( however the gun has an aluminum receiver and a single yet robust locking lug. the gun seems to be robust. I shoot mags through it regularly.

I am also looking into purchasing a supernova, or rem 887 with the rotary locking lug. Our these two designs better suited for the 12ga +P round?
Thank you,
Chris

[hubel458]

Rotary lug bolts are stronger, but can't be loaded much more than
your 835 Mossy without a Pacnor barrel job like we did on
the Savage 210s, or same heft as NEF bull barrels. WIN has a model
with a 25" bull barrel.

What is the Outside Diameter of the muzzle of your Mossy.
Following loads are for modern steel guns with .920" OD muzzle.

For 3.5 inch plastic cases using our slow powder loads staying
just under 15,000 psi; use 100gr IMR4759 with slugs up to 600gr.
discarding sabot slugs up to 550gr or so. If you want more
powder,less wads, use RE17 up to 130gr to get about same pressure
and velocity.Leave no space, but fill with the seal and whatever wads
or cushion wads needed.Roll crimping is best.Ed

[turp81]

Thank you, Ed.

[hubel458]

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.





Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.



In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..



Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

[Dave McCracken]

Holy Overkill, Ed!!

If I read this correctly,you're exceeding 460 Weatherby performance by a factor of 2X.

Wow.....

[madmike]

.460 Wby is 8200 ft lbs at the muzzle.

[hubel458]

Well in the Savage with the heavy barrel and
long 3.85 inch 12ga FH case we made from BMG brass
running 40K psi we get almost twice the 460 energy.
In a high pressure action like Rob's falling block
or my falling block, we get 2 1/2 times as much.
In my 585HE we get about 1 1/2 times as much.Ed

[turp81]

Hi ED,
I am getting everything together to load my rounds for the 835 mossy. I have one more question before I start... I was going order my slugs from DixieSlugs. I wanted to try the IXL DGS slugs; however, they weigh 870 gr. instead of the 600 gr. How much of IMR4759 should I drop? You recomended 100gr IMR4759 for a 600 gr slug to stay at a safe 15,000 psi.
I will be using brass 3 1/2 rocky mt cases.
Thanks again for the help

[hubel458]

That 100gr 4759 was for a 3.5 plastic case with 600gr slug.
For the brass case and 870 gr you can use same amount.
But if you have RE17 it is better for the larger charges with
heavier slugs in brass case.Start with 150 gr Re17.
And even in brass case no airspace use wads.Ed

[turp81]

Just for fun, I was thinking of loading some black powder rounds like the paradox 12 bore. is it possible to over pressue a modarn gun like my 835 with black powder?
I was thinking of using 100=200 gr of f triple 7, in the rocky 3 1/2 mountian caseings, with the same dixie slugs (870gr) loading with reload-17.

[hubel458]

I'd start with a 100gr black, as I've never tested black.
Then go up 5gr at a time checking extraction and
case expansion.Ed

[turp81]

sounds like a plan. Thanks Ed

[turp81]

I am looking for another slug supplier. I went to Dixie’s site to order my slugs. Found out they only sell pre -loaded ammo in the IXL (out of stock at the moment). They also do not have the other slugs available on their site anymore.

[hubel458]

I know they don't have anymore. And their 600 gr
was the best full bore slug ever.

So what do we do, Well you can cast,
but if you going to cast might as well cast 58cal slugs
and use the 12ga sabots, that will be available by fall,
that hold 58cal slugs. The 58cal molds are lot cheaper
and 58cal slugs are much more streamlined, and that can extend
their effective range.Plus there are guys selling 58cal slugs
on Gunbroker. I've bought a whole bunch.Ed

[turp81]

Hi Ed. I cant wait to see them available . What do you think of casting sabots out of Hevi-shot? I like the Greek US-S slug in 970 gr however it looks too long to give much room for 100+ gr of re-17.

[hubel458]

The USS isn't imported yet that I know of.
You can't melt hevishot with lead melting and casting stuff.
It has tungsten with higher melting point than steel.
You can make tungsten bullets on lathe from bars,
but price is way too high for material.Also expensive
to machine.Hard on cutters.
The 58 cal bullets for 12ga sabot are just plain or
hard alloy lead. You can get weights up to 530gr and
still be streamlined and get them out at over 2000 fps in
long plastic cases and faster in brass cases.Ed

[hubel458]

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.




Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.




Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.




On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

[turp81]

Hi Ed, those were awesome sabot loads posted above
I've seen a browning bps 10 ga pump action at my local gun shop. I thought about getting one for my next big bore slug gun project when I'm finished with the mossy. It is a breech locking lug also. If I cut the barrel to cylinder bore, do you think it can handle the same posted loads?:

ome 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs

Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
Slug hollowbase and hard cast.

740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase Cup has it own seal
and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.

[hubel458]

Thr Browning action is strong enough- Barrel not as heavy
as my NEf , I'd reduce loads by 20gr to protect barrel.

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.



Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.



Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

[turp81]

Thank you, Ed. Glade your back.

I think I will stick with a 12 with a rotary lugs for my next project. The 10ga bps doesn't seem to offer much more power advantage then 150 gr re-17 in the 3 1/2 brass case for my mossy.

[hubel458]

Using scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I and the boy will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 100 for 300 bucks,
or be a 500 guy buying a 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as much if possible.Ed

[hubel458]

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls 285gr each, going about 190 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed





PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries
send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done.
Right now can't afford export costs to send cases back out of US...


.

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.



Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.



Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.





And an ultimate big bore from history.ED