avoiding ear damage with powerful rifles - Page 3

OldAl · May 11, 2012, 02:12 PM

Huh? Say could you speak up, I've been shooting for years and cant hear you!

Ryden · May 11, 2012, 05:10 PM

I SAID, THAT SIMPLY BECAUSE ... e

Samari Jack · May 12, 2012, 05:39 PM

I read a study once that showed in the immediate, peri-trauma time of hearing damage from loud noises, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs like Advil (Ibuprofen) help to decrease the damage. Advil can be obtained over the counter. The over the counter tablet strength is 200 mg, dosed 400 mg every 4-6 hours. For those with strong stomachs and a good liver, this can be bumped to the prescription dose of 800 mg no more than three times a day. For tinnitis due to gunfire, a person only needs one dose ASAP after the event. It is conceivable that taking a dose just prior to the event could help.

Tylenol, (acetaminophen) is not a non-steroidal and didn't help in the study I read.

Stevie-Ray · May 12, 2012, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Tylenol, (acetaminophen) is not a non-steroidal and didn't help in the study I read.

Medicine has been telling us for the past 40 years that acetaminophen did nothing to relieve inflammation, but here lately they've been reversing themselves. What gives with that?

I take Meloxicam on a regular basis. It doesn't do a thing for chronic tinnitus; I wonder if it would work on acute?

KSDeputy · May 15, 2012, 11:05 AM

Many of us lost hearing in our right ear, if we were right handed. At the time, no one knew of the damage that could be caused. In addition, I had to have a right hip replacement from carrying a heavy sidearm on that side. We started with S&W .357 revolvers, and later changed to S&W 645 .45's, and later to S&W 4506 .45's. The day I retired, they gave me the new 4506 I had recently been issued. It had been to the range once, so 50 rounds had been fired through it. I keep in touch with what is going on at the office. They have .40 caliber Glocks, now. I have never owned or shot a Glock. When they were first acquired, each deputy had to attend an 8 hour class to learn about the weapon. Most of my pistols, including the Walthers, operate the same. They have a decocking lever, which lowers the hammer safely. The Smith's will not fire, even with a cartridge in the chamber, if the magazine is not in the gun. I haven't read the Walther book to know if they operate the same, as I have yet to carry them. This is a great safety feature for the peace officer. If a bad guy gets your gun and you are wrestling around trying to get it back, all you have to do is release the magazine. This buys you extra time to get it back, or to use a back up gun. Most criminals are not smart enough to figure out why the gun won't shoot. I am stuck on Smiths, I have about ten of them, many different models. I have three Walthers. I got to babbling and got off of the subject. We are required to wear eye and hearing protection now, no exceptions. If one carries under LEOSA, you must shoot and qualify the same course of fire yearly as the full time deputies do quarterly. As I am almost deaf in my right ear, I can tell you how important ear protection is. Eye protection is as well, if the shooter to the left of you is shooting a semi-auto, you are likely to get his spent brass to the side of your face, or your eye.

**hso** · May 17, 2012, 06:21 PM

The Walker's in ear products have the problem that they're difficult to insert properly. If not inserted properly the NRR will not reach the advertised protection. The advertised NRR comes from applying the testing procedure under ideal conditions.

If you want amplification with cutoff for shooting I recommend the use of an electronic muff (NRR 20-22) and high NRR plugs.

Make note that you can get foam plugs in sizes. EAR offers Amigos for small ear canals and Grande for larger ear canals.

TrickyDick · May 17, 2012, 10:20 PM

I've shot .50 BMG from a M2 just using foam earplugs, and put in them in just like in those photos, not a problem...

Samari Jack · May 19, 2012, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevie-Ray

Medicine has been telling us for the past 40 years that acetaminophen did nothing to relieve inflammation, but here lately they've been reversing themselves. What gives with that?

I take Meloxicam on a regular basis. It doesn't do a thing for chronic tinnitus; I wonder if it would work on acute?

Nothing wrong with taking acetaminophen (Tylenol) with a non-steroidal like Ibuprofen or Meloxicam. Their mechanism of action is different. Just be aware some OTCs combine both in the same tablet. Tylenol in excess of 4,000 mg a day can kill you. Most only recommend a max of 3,000 a day. Less if you have liver disease.

The generally accepted belief is that the non-steroidals will help in preventing damage form inflammation in addition to relieving pain from inflammation.

There is movement a-foot to take all acetaminophen products off the market. Inadvertent overdose and suicides are the cause. Suicide from Tylenol OD is an ugly way to go.

majortoo · May 22, 2012, 10:01 PM

As a grumpy, old war surplus Viet Nam veteran, I can attest to the pain from a day at the range without hearing protection. I qualified with the old M1 Garand, the M14, the M16, the M60, and M1911A1. Besides those, I got to famfire (familiarization fire) the M2 .50 Browning, the BAR, the M1 carbine, and several other toys. All great fun, but that was all back in the sixties when the Army was not sensitive to the problem of hearing loss. Some of us would spit on a wad of toilet paper and stuff that in our ears. It seemed to help some, and a recent test (taken at my wife's insistence) showed no hearing loss. (Now she thinks my hearing loss is real, but selective. Go figure!)

Saakee · May 23, 2012, 02:04 PM

I was looking at a pair of howard leight sync's and saw they said 25db reduction. I then wondered this:

If I use a pair of muffs that say 25db reduction and a pair of earplugs that say 33db attenuation, do I receive these two together and get a 58db reduction or does it get attenuated to some percentage of these two added together?

ZombieHorde · May 31, 2012, 08:23 PM

I use weapon mounted ear protection

oldpink · June 1, 2012, 11:56 AM

Kinda unwieldy, even disregarding all that it takes to get that extra bit of hardware fully legal, though.

LAK · June 9, 2012, 04:22 PM

Don't have time to wade through all responses but if not already mentioned avoid shooting right next to large objects like trees, walls etc. I have found that this significantly reflects the sharp report of other centerfire rifles.

Ranb · June 11, 2012, 06:12 PM

A silencer and muffs are the best hearing protection a person can use. I do not like shooting unsuppressed anymore.

Ranb

Ranb · June 11, 2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

If I use a pair of muffs that say 25db reduction and a pair of earplugs that say 33db attenuation, do I receive these two together and get a 58db reduction or does it get attenuated to some percentage of these two added together?

No, a decibel is a tenth of a Bel. It is also logarithmic. http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=3300

Adding 25 dB and 33 dB give us 33.6 dB. 33 db is about six times the value of 25 dB. Adding a comparatively small value of 25 to a much larger value of 33 increases the sum very little.

While this appears to make double hearing protection more trouble than it is worth, in practice it can be helpful in case one set is not worn properly.

Ranb

Bentonville · June 11, 2012, 11:37 PM

Ranb, I wish I could get a suppressor. I asked our sheriff if he would approve the paperwork for me to obtain one and he said flat out no. He is not signing for any class 3 weapons etc. including suppressors. Too bad for me.

Ranb · June 12, 2012, 07:33 AM

Sheriffs that live in states that allow unlicensed civilians to own silencers but refuse to sign the ATF form 4 to buy or ATF form 1 to make are foolish. The fact is that it is a simple matter to create a trust to own the silencer. A trust does not require the signature, photos or fingerprints. The sheriff can decide whether he or she knows who owns this stuff or remain ignorant. the smart ones sign, period.

Ranb

m1dbob1944 · June 17, 2012, 08:06 PM

I have hearing loss from the army and from ear infections both as a kid and frseveral as an adult. To protect what I have left, I wear plugs and muffs

m1dbob1944 · June 17, 2012, 08:08 PM

Why are suppressors made a Class III?

Ranb · June 17, 2012, 09:37 PM

Back in 1934 machine guns, destructive devices, short barreled rifles/shotguns, gadget guns and silencers were placed under the control of the National Firearms Act. As far as I know silencers were included as some sort of anti-poaching measure during the depression.

Ranb

**hso** · June 19, 2012, 10:45 AM

Ranb is correct, you do not simply add the NRR for the muffs to the NRR of the plugs to get the effective NRR.

OSHA guidance says to take the higher NRR and add 5.

larry237 · June 27, 2012, 09:42 PM

I have some hearing loss from military, law enforcement, and recreational shooting, as well as diving, flying, and loud music. Recently I had a poured in molded ear plug made by an audiologist and it works better than any other types that I have tried. I still double up with muffs to try to protect my remaining hearing. If plugs or muffs don't seal up correctly, they don't work as well. When using muffs, your protective glasses may break the seal and reduce their effectiveness. It is a good idea to get a baseline hearing test to see how much your hearing has been damaged and follow up tests to see how well your protection is working. It is a real nuisance to have hearing loss and tinitus, so protect your hearing as much as you can.

bergmen · June 28, 2012, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TITAN308

I fail to see how a piece of foam is not completely and utterly universal.

I mean, perhaps trimming the ol' ear hairs might make the room that is needed... lol

Well, me for one. I can try fifty times with every conceivable method on earth and the foam plugs might work once out of those fifty times. Several different types of foam plugs, none of them fit my ears, they leak sound like a sieve. Also, in the rare circumstance I DO get them seated properly, they always work their way out, or pop out due to a cough, sneeze or yawn.

What I use (for doubling-up and especially for motorcycle riding with full face helmet behind a windshield) is silicone putty ear plugs:

http://www.medicineandmore.com/physi...gs-p-1609.html

NRR of 20 db which is okay with muffs or helmet. These conform to my ears and do not work themselves out. Extremely comfortable.

I need to double-up with my M1A Scout Squad. Short barrel plus the muzzle brake (loudener) results in sharp, painful muzzle blast with just muffs. Double-up with the silicone and all is well.

Dan

GLOOB · July 6, 2012, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Double up. And foam earplugs have a much higher NRR than most other styles (rubber in particular). You can get NRR33 earplugs, which are exactly twice as effective as NRR30, four times better than NRR27, and 10 times better than NRR23

Hah, I see this all the time, and it's a bit of a misconception. The decibel rating is a logarithm of the sound wave amplitude, because that's how we HEAR things. This is why the volume knob on your stereo needs to have a logarithmic potentiometer. If it was linear, it would seem like the first third of the pot did all the adjusting, and the last 2/3 didn't really make any difference.

Sound wave amplitude does not have a linear effect on perception of or damage to hearing. So this doesn't make an NRR33 twice as effective as NRR30 in any meaningful way. In other words, when you get a sound that is loud enough to cause damage, you NEED to reduce the amplitude ALOT to make a SMALL difference. The 2x times better thing is just a convenient way to illustrate on a graph of sound wave amplitude. NRR rating is either good enough for what you're doing, or not good enough.

PTMCCAIN · July 7, 2012, 09:41 AM

The most effective ear protection, for me, is using the 33dB rated foam plugs, the orange ones. I roll them up into as tight a cylinder as possible, use one hand to pull up on my ear lobe and shove them down into my ear cannel as far as I can, keep my fingers in each ear allowing them to expand as much as possible, then remove my fingers, they expand some more.

Great protection.

And, to be doubly safe, I then put on my noise cancelling muffs. My best ones are my Peltor muffs, but they make shooting rifles kind of a pain.

Here's a video I made about hearing protection.

May 15, 2012, 11:05 AM	#55
KSDeputy Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Posts: 53	Many of us lost hearing in our right ear, if we were right handed. At the time, no one knew of the damage that could be caused. In addition, I had to have a right hip replacement from carrying a heavy sidearm on that side. We started with S&W .357 revolvers, and later changed to S&W 645 .45's, and later to S&W 4506 .45's. The day I retired, they gave me the new 4506 I had recently been issued. It had been to the range once, so 50 rounds had been fired through it. I keep in touch with what is going on at the office. They have .40 caliber Glocks, now. I have never owned or shot a Glock. When they were first acquired, each deputy had to attend an 8 hour class to learn about the weapon. Most of my pistols, including the Walthers, operate the same. They have a decocking lever, which lowers the hammer safely. The Smith's will not fire, even with a cartridge in the chamber, if the magazine is not in the gun. I haven't read the Walther book to know if they operate the same, as I have yet to carry them. This is a great safety feature for the peace officer. If a bad guy gets your gun and you are wrestling around trying to get it back, all you have to do is release the magazine. This buys you extra time to get it back, or to use a back up gun. Most criminals are not smart enough to figure out why the gun won't shoot. I am stuck on Smiths, I have about ten of them, many different models. I have three Walthers. I got to babbling and got off of the subject. We are required to wear eye and hearing protection now, no exceptions. If one carries under LEOSA, you must shoot and qualify the same course of fire yearly as the full time deputies do quarterly. As I am almost deaf in my right ear, I can tell you how important ear protection is. Eye protection is as well, if the shooter to the left of you is shooting a semi-auto, you are likely to get his spent brass to the side of your face, or your eye. Last edited by KSDeputy; May 15, 2012 at 11:18 AM. Reason: Errors

May 17, 2012, 06:21 PM	#56
hso Moderator Join Date: January 3, 2003 Location: 0 hrs east of TN Posts: 33,521	The Walker's in ear products have the problem that they're difficult to insert properly. If not inserted properly the NRR will not reach the advertised protection. The advertised NRR comes from applying the testing procedure under ideal conditions. If you want amplification with cutoff for shooting I recommend the use of an electronic muff (NRR 20-22) and high NRR plugs. Make note that you can get foam plugs in sizes. EAR offers Amigos for small ear canals and Grande for larger ear canals. __________________ SAF Life Member/NRAILA Contributor **************** Please Read The Forum Rules** TheHighRoad exists to provide a higher grade of discussion than is found on some other gun forums so antis and undecideds can see that gun owners and RKBA advocates are not the reckless misanthropes they tell everyone we are. Personal attacks, group stereotyping, macho chest-thumping, and partisan hackery are low road and hurt all of us. Last edited by hso; June 19, 2012 at 08:58 AM.

May 17, 2012, 10:20 PM	#57
TrickyDick Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: Maine, USA Posts: 364	I've shot .50 BMG from a M2 just using foam earplugs, and put in them in just like in those photos, not a problem... __________________ "The only such thing as a good commie, is a dead commie" "Who is John Galt?"

May 22, 2012, 10:01 PM	#59
majortoo Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 54	Ears As a grumpy, old war surplus Viet Nam veteran, I can attest to the pain from a day at the range without hearing protection. I qualified with the old M1 Garand, the M14, the M16, the M60, and M1911A1. Besides those, I got to famfire (familiarization fire) the M2 .50 Browning, the BAR, the M1 carbine, and several other toys. All great fun, but that was all back in the sixties when the Army was not sensitive to the problem of hearing loss. Some of us would spit on a wad of toilet paper and stuff that in our ears. It seemed to help some, and a recent test (taken at my wife's insistence) showed no hearing loss. (Now she thinks my hearing loss is real, but selective. Go figure!)

May 23, 2012, 02:04 PM	#60
Saakee Member Join Date: December 6, 2009 Location: Downtown Salem, Oregon Posts: 446	I was looking at a pair of howard leight sync's and saw they said 25db reduction. I then wondered this: If I use a pair of muffs that say 25db reduction and a pair of earplugs that say 33db attenuation, do I receive these two together and get a 58db reduction or does it get attenuated to some percentage of these two added together? __________________ "THEY TOOK OUR TRIGGER JERBS!!"

May 11, 2012, 02:12 PM	#51
OldAl Member Join Date: May 11, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 4	Huh? Say could you speak up, I've been shooting for years and cant hear you!

May 12, 2012, 05:39 PM	#53
Samari Jack Member Join Date: November 16, 2010 Posts: 278	I read a study once that showed in the immediate, peri-trauma time of hearing damage from loud noises, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs like Advil (Ibuprofen) help to decrease the damage. Advil can be obtained over the counter. The over the counter tablet strength is 200 mg, dosed 400 mg every 4-6 hours. For those with strong stomachs and a good liver, this can be bumped to the prescription dose of 800 mg no more than three times a day. For tinnitis due to gunfire, a person only needs one dose ASAP after the event. It is conceivable that taking a dose just prior to the event could help. Tylenol, (acetaminophen) is not a non-steroidal and didn't help in the study I read.

May 31, 2012, 08:23 PM	#61
ZombieHorde Member Join Date: May 31, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 17	I use weapon mounted ear protection __________________ All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

June 1, 2012, 11:56 AM	#62
oldpink Member Join Date: February 25, 2012 Posts: 9	Kinda unwieldy, even disregarding all that it takes to get that extra bit of hardware fully legal, though.

June 9, 2012, 04:22 PM	#63
LAK Member Join Date: July 28, 2004 Posts: 2,484	Don't have time to wade through all responses but if not already mentioned avoid shooting right next to large objects like trees, walls etc. I have found that this significantly reflects the sharp report of other centerfire rifles.

June 11, 2012, 06:12 PM	#64
Ranb Member Join Date: December 15, 2003 Location: WA, USA Posts: 820	A silencer and muffs are the best hearing protection a person can use. I do not like shooting unsuppressed anymore. Ranb

June 11, 2012, 11:37 PM	#66
Bentonville Member Join Date: June 18, 2006 Posts: 372	Ranb, I wish I could get a suppressor. I asked our sheriff if he would approve the paperwork for me to obtain one and he said flat out no. He is not signing for any class 3 weapons etc. including suppressors. Too bad for me.

June 12, 2012, 07:33 AM	#67
Ranb Member Join Date: December 15, 2003 Location: WA, USA Posts: 820	Sheriffs that live in states that allow unlicensed civilians to own silencers but refuse to sign the ATF form 4 to buy or ATF form 1 to make are foolish. The fact is that it is a simple matter to create a trust to own the silencer. A trust does not require the signature, photos or fingerprints. The sheriff can decide whether he or she knows who owns this stuff or remain ignorant. the smart ones sign, period. Ranb

June 17, 2012, 08:06 PM	#68
m1dbob1944 Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 35	I have hearing loss from the army and from ear infections both as a kid and frseveral as an adult. To protect what I have left, I wear plugs and muffs

June 17, 2012, 08:08 PM	#69
m1dbob1944 Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 35	Why are suppressors made a Class III?

June 17, 2012, 09:37 PM	#70
Ranb Member Join Date: December 15, 2003 Location: WA, USA Posts: 820	Back in 1934 machine guns, destructive devices, short barreled rifles/shotguns, gadget guns and silencers were placed under the control of the National Firearms Act. As far as I know silencers were included as some sort of anti-poaching measure during the depression. Ranb

June 19, 2012, 10:45 AM	#71
hso Moderator Join Date: January 3, 2003 Location: 0 hrs east of TN Posts: 33,521	Ranb is correct, you do not simply add the NRR for the muffs to the NRR of the plugs to get the effective NRR. OSHA guidance says to take the higher NRR and add 5. __________________ SAF Life Member/NRAILA Contributor **************** Please Read The Forum Rules** TheHighRoad exists to provide a higher grade of discussion than is found on some other gun forums so antis and undecideds can see that gun owners and RKBA advocates are not the reckless misanthropes they tell everyone we are. Personal attacks, group stereotyping, macho chest-thumping, and partisan hackery are low road and hurt all of us.

June 27, 2012, 09:42 PM	#72
larry237 Member Join Date: November 21, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 22	I have some hearing loss from military, law enforcement, and recreational shooting, as well as diving, flying, and loud music. Recently I had a poured in molded ear plug made by an audiologist and it works better than any other types that I have tried. I still double up with muffs to try to protect my remaining hearing. If plugs or muffs don't seal up correctly, they don't work as well. When using muffs, your protective glasses may break the seal and reduce their effectiveness. It is a good idea to get a baseline hearing test to see how much your hearing has been damaged and follow up tests to see how well your protection is working. It is a real nuisance to have hearing loss and tinitus, so protect your hearing as much as you can.

July 7, 2012, 09:41 AM	#75
PTMCCAIN member Join Date: January 1, 2011 Posts: 545	The most effective ear protection, for me, is using the 33dB rated foam plugs, the orange ones. I roll them up into as tight a cylinder as possible, use one hand to pull up on my ear lobe and shove them down into my ear cannel as far as I can, keep my fingers in each ear allowing them to expand as much as possible, then remove my fingers, they expand some more. Great protection. And, to be doubly safe, I then put on my noise cancelling muffs. My best ones are my Peltor muffs, but they make shooting rifles kind of a pain. Here's a video I made about hearing protection.