On Fighting Shotguns....

[winfried]

Everything discussed except effectiveness. Shot guns were made to shoot birds, and for the birds they are. Shotguns do NOT knock anybody over. That is for the movies.

Regards

WAH

[stevolene]

"Everything discussed except effectiveness. Shot guns were made to shoot birds, and for the birds they are. Shotguns do NOT knock anybody over. That is for the movies."

actually this isnt true, I have a brother in law that was ripped open by a shotgun blast, been dead a few years now

[allaroundhunter]

Originally Posted by winfried

Everything discussed except effectiveness. Shot guns were made to shoot birds, and for the birds they are. Shotguns do NOT knock anybody over. That is for the movies.

Regards

WAH

Except for those unfortunate enough to be hit by more powerful rounds.... Slugs? 00 buckshot? I assure you, shotguns are plenty effective in a defensive role against 2-legged creatures. Anyone to suggest otherwise is a fool.

Sent from my HTC One X

[lefteyedom]

I do not have the time to read all 17 pages of post in this tread. That said let me be bold enough to throw a little gas on the fire...

If you get a chance to go see one of the Bodies Revealed displays please do. Short of a college gross anatomy class it is the best lesson in shot placement. The real human plastic-ed bodies are an eye opener for those have have a had the good fortune not to see human carnage with their own eyes.

The human body is a wonderful thing, but it is not as rugged as one would think by reading ammo/gun reviews. Sure there anomalies but as a whole humans are not hard to disable/kill.

If you put an 7/8 oz of Shotgun shot into the chest cavity of a human at 15 feet the odds are in your favor that you will be the last man/woman standing.


I am currently preparing a Mossberg 500, 20 gauge for a lady friend of mine. The barrel has been shorten to 20", the stock shorten and good recoil pad installed. Total cost? $220.00

She can not operate her 9mm pistol due to a physical aliment, this weapon will allow her to sleep at easy again. The plus is she get a "kick" out of shoot Milk jug with a shotgun.

[One_Jackal]

One thing that annoys me to no end is the urban myth that buckshot perform better with a full choke. Yet every official test I have read about and every informal test I have done cylinder/improved cylinder chokes out perform a full choke every time. Full chokes deform large buckshot commonly used in home defense. Try a pizza box at 40 yards. You will see the full choke has way more flyers.

[allaroundhunter]

Originally Posted by One_Jackal

One thing that annoys me to no end is the urban myth that buckshot perform better with a full choke. Yet every official test and every informal test I have done cylinder/improved cylinder chokes out perform a full choke every time. Full chokes deform large buckshot commonly used in home defense. Try a pizza box at 40 yards. You will see the full choke has way more flyers.

But saying that a full choke always has flyers is also false. Patterning your home defense shotgun is like sighting in a rifle. Find the right load/choke combo and stick with it.

Sent from my HTC One X

[riflefan]

In response to lefteyedoms post about the Mossberg. My only current shotgun is a youth model 500c in 20ga. I replaced the original stock with one that has a pistol grip, it has a 20" barrel standard. I use this for everything, skeet, rodents, deer "at times" and keep #3 buck in it beside the bed. I think your lady friend should be quiet pleased. Having the pistol grip helps me have a little better control. The gun is very easy to handle and if 5 shots of #3 buck can't stop them I have a real problem.

[winfried]

Oh yes, at 5m a shotgun is effective, but not neccessarily instantly. Unlike many others here, this fool speak of own experiences, but I do not think it appriate that I should give details here publically.
Tell me in private mail of your own experience and I will probably be able to match your experience case by case.

I am not interested what anybody has read. But one case I would like to mention.
When we had the bush war on, army intelligence wanted a cornered terrorist alive. He got shot at with a Mossberg 12 G pump loaded with AAA. We had a chance to shoot him with proper rifles.The terry got away and is still laughing to this day. Everybody wanted to know how is that possible, I told them "shotguns are for the birds".

Except for slugs, I always refer to shotgun ballistics as confetti ballistics.

Regards

Winfried

[Youngster]

I respect your experiences, but a case where birdshot was used tells you little about the effectiveness of buckshot.

[allaroundhunter]

Originally Posted by Youngster

I respect your experiences, but a case where birdshot was used tells you little about the effectiveness of buckshot.

Youngster, AAA, is the English measurement equivalent of T-shot. Not quite as effective as 00 Buck, but not necessarily birdshot either. If I was issued a shotgun for military use, however, I most certainly would not want to be issued T/AAA sized shot.

If you are trying to keep someone from escaping, it doesn't make sense to try to use a shotgun in the first place though, regardless of shot size; it is too imprecise. A rifle would have been much more appropriate with a shot to the leg and then allowing the medic to tend to the combatant after capturing him.

Sent from my HTC One X

[Youngster]

Even #4 buckshot is reportedly pretty inconsistant as an antipersonel load, it's 00 and the other large buckshot size that gave the shotgun its reputation as being an effective close quarters combat weapon.

[Erik M]

I have owned several scatter guns over the years, all with bead sights. I recently purchased a Rem 1100 that came equipped with a barrel that had rifle sights. To my surprise I am more comfortable and more accurate with it.

[winfried]

Originally Posted by lefteyedom

I do not have the time to read all 17 pages of post in this tread. That said let me be bold enough to throw a little gas on the fire...

If you get a chance to go see one of the Bodies Revealed displays please do. Short of a college gross anatomy class it is the best lesson in shot placement. The real human plastic-ed bodies are an eye opener for those have have a had the good fortune not to see human carnage with their own eyes.

The human body is a wonderful thing, but it is not as rugged as one would think by reading ammo/gun reviews. Sure there anomalies but as a whole humans are not hard to disable/kill.

If you put an 7/8 oz of Shotgun shot into the chest cavity of a human at 15 feet the odds are in your favor that you will be the last man/woman standing.


I am currently preparing a Mossberg 500, 20 gauge for a lady friend of mine. The barrel has been shorten to 20", the stock shorten and good recoil pad installed. Total cost? $220.00

She can not operate her 9mm pistol due to a physical aliment, this weapon will allow her to sleep at easy again. The plus is she get a "kick" out of shoot Milk jug with a shotgun.

The problem with is that LG loaded with 6 or 9 pellets in 12 gage produces the weirdest
patterns. At 20m you could be lucky or unlucky to hit somebody, never mind flyers.
Somebody cited the weight of the shot as a measure to effectiveness.
This is incorrect. The impact of any projectile is always less than
the recoil felt by the operator. (With exception of the Gyrojet long
forgotten).
If one builds a ballistic pendulum of 60kg and shoots into it with a
30-06 or a 12 bore shotgun, the pendulum swing is 95 and 104mm only.
To give it one slight push with a finger, the pendulum moves 450mm. So
as far as weight is concerned, an index finger is more deadly than a
12 bore. One can do it also much easier mathematically. Recoil energy
is another useless figure as it changes wirth the weight of the weapon
and is no indication the amount of recoil produced by a cartridge.

Regards

Winfried

[pezo]

AAA ?? Isn't that a battery size? 12 pellet magnum buck would produce a nasty wound on an assailant rest assured, in addition to slugs particulary hard cast and even standard buck. The shotgun is an awsome defense weapon. God bless america!

[PabloJ]

Twelve gauge Magnum buckshot load is good for nothing except perhaps blowing off doors of hinges. It's pretty awful anti-personnel load.

[bomberbill357]

Wow! This is a long thread. Lot's of terrific information. Don't forget 3 Gun as apractical way to get proficient. Remember: it's a game, take a good course of instruction on a regular basis.
As far as Tacticool, I have a mossberg 590 and I can not for the life of me "improve it". It's just perfect for me the way it is. Everything I tried to hang on it, now sits in a locker, while the 590 sits in the bd closet.
Thanks again for the excellent info!

[allaroundhunter]

Don't forget 3 Gun as apractical way to get proficient. Remember: it's a game, take a good course of instruction on a regular basis.

I would not say that 3-gun is a practical way to train for combat shotgun techniques. Ammunition used is low recoiling (usually birdshot), and it is all about speed and rarely makes competitors consider the tactical advantage. Will it help with reloading? Maybe, but the shell holders that they use are not ever used or recommended by combat instructors.

The best way is to take combat/defensive shotgun courses. They will do much more to help with "fighting shotgun" skills than 3-gun.

[mharveyww1]

With respect to Wllifred: You are, of course, correct. A shotgun blast is not going to send anyone tumbling backwards (or even knocked down, necessarily).

But a well placed load of 00 or slug will stop just about anyone - every time.

Uncle Sam once gave me a free vacation to that garden spot of SE Asia known as South Viet Nam. While enjoying the sights and the ambience, I had occasion to carry a Remington 870 and an M-14. I never felt under-served with either.

It was not a pleasant experience, but the practical use of the 870 left absolutely no doubt as to its's capabilities. I never had to use more than one round per target.

The shotgun, of course is for CQB. It will certainly not replace a good rifle for all-around versatility.

On a side note: I think it's interesting that the US military is bringing back the M-14. I was not a sniper, but we were using the slogan "one shot - one kill" to describe the '14' long before it became popular with the stealthy guys.

Forgetting all of the 'teething problems" the M-16 had when first in service, it was still a pretty good "stopper" (when it worked). Now, from what I hear from guys back from Iraq and Afghanistan is that even a 3-round burst to center-of-mass won't always do the job...the bad guys just keep on going!
The reason is that we got "politically correct" with the M-16's ammunition a few years back...redesigned it, and it no longer tumbles like it used to (causing MASSIVE wounds).
Now, it just goes right on through like a needle.

OK, I'm way off topic and I apologize for rambling. But, to wrap up the shotgun comment: I currently have an 870 with an extended magazine, pistol grip, tritium night sights, a 6-round sidesaddle and a Knox Stock (which practically eliminates muzzle rise and reduces felt recoil to about that of a 20 ga.). To say that I feel confident it will provide all the home defense I need is a vast understatement. Shotguns are not JUST for birds!

Mike

[IMTHDUKE]

Mike

Good post....brings back those old memories...Nam 67-68....Semper Fi.

[chieftain]

Mike, Duke, welcome home brothers. 67,68,69. 3rdMarDiv.

Mike my experiences around the Remington 870 were not as positive as yours. The 870 was the one model shotgun no one wanted. The 870 had a proclivity to double shuck, which would tie up the gun, often and unfortunately for the rest of your, now most likely to be, short life.

I remember in the mid 70's when Remington advertised their "new improvement' on the 870. They split the lifter so you could use your pocket knife to get that second shell out of the receiver. Not a winner.

For me the 870 was a non-starter. Personally during the war I preferred the Ithica's, and later the Mossbergs, particularly the 590 variant. Gave my 590A to my son-in-law and I now play with a Benelli M4 or a double barrel hammer gun when a 12ga fighting weapon is the ticket.

It took me to the late 90's to find out that Remington had finally fixed the double shuck problem some time in the mid 80's. Didn't do any good for some of my buddies in the Nam though. Sort of like the Matty Mattel.

I was able to hang on to my M14 into the middle of 69. I do agree that for 100 yards in the 55gr 5.56 NATO worked pretty good in the XM16E1's and the A1's. By then though I would not trust the AR system any more than the 870 family, at all. Reliability in any fighting weapon was then, and still is today job #1 for any fighting weapon.

Of course the folks that want to run your healthcare system, then chose to "fix" the existing 5.56 NATO round with the M855 62gr round that "tumbled" less. Works through the SAW "better" but who cares that it doesn't put the bad guys down as effectively. The brass and desk jockey's that make these decisions, weren't going to be wounded and killed when the bullet's didn't work as well, as the earlier rounds.

One word comes to mind, "Priorities", the typical government decision is not based on the what is needed by the troops or citizens, but what the government is interested in this week.

AS to the M14, I still have a M1A/M14 in my safe today. Stone reliable and with an effective round. The Army today is still trying to find an "effective" bullet for our service weapon 45 years after being accepted into service. Any one see a disconnect here?

Interestingly enough, no one had or has had any problem with the 30-06 or 308/7.62 NATO. They work well even when not using the most modern or up to date bullet material and/or designs.

I have always believed we need two calibers anyway. One for in town and one for out of town, I like the idea of a "do all" caliber, sounds great, but in life most duel use things don't do both things well. We are back to priorities.

So endith the rambling and inane sermon.

Good luck to all.

Fred

[Coal Dragger]

Not that I have a lot to contribute, but in my tour in the "Sand Box" (Al Anbar Province, Iraq) in the Marines (attached to 1stMarDiv) as an infantryman I can say the Benelli M4 worked pretty well when actually deployed and used for its intended purpose. Never observed one to jam or go down for any reason, and being a semi-auto follow up shots were no doubt easier for guys who had them if for no other reason than everything else is semi or full auto and pulling the trigger again is more consistent with your muscle memory training.

[mharveyww1]

Chieftan: Good to read your input.

It occurs to me that my noting that I carried the 870 pump AND and M-14, WOULD seem to indicate that I was 'jarhead' (lovingly expressed!).
Actually 1st CAV...where the shotguns were not nearly as widely used as in the Corps.

I had the great advantage of having grown up in a 'gun-family'. My father, who WAS a Leatherneck in WWII (Guadalcanal, New Georgia) was an avid shooter and antique gun collector (I actually got my first gun the same week I got my first bicycle!).

The upshot is that I had been using pump shotguns (especially the 870) since I was a kid. And although I know there were some mechanical/design "issues" with the weapons in combat use, I can't help but think that "human error", especially under such extreme stress was a contributing factor.
I never experienced a failure of any kind.

How I came to hold onto the M-14 I carried to Nam while almost all the others around me had already converted to the "Plastic Fantastic" is a story for another post. I'll just say that "greybeard" First Sergeants had more sense
than the 'West Pointers' in higher echelons.

Mike

[PTMCCAIN]

OK, some people have busted my chops for my previous videos showing how quickly the Benelli M4 can cycle, claiming that I'm obiously just spraying pellets all over the place and no way can I hit anything when I shoot it so quickly.

Well...I thought, "That's a fair enough point."

I got the M4 out to the gun club and my son and I put it through its paces against a few very suspicious looking characters with handgun and black ski masks on.

I think the conclusion is simply this:

Yes, the Benelli M4 is manageable enough to get a lot of lead down range in a big hurry and be accurate at a self-distance distance.


Please note....

NO, I am NOT advocating ever shooting a shotgun this quickly in a SD situation and yes, I know pellets missed the BGs too, but...as you will see, with more controlled double tapping, etc. I got the lead on target just fine, and even at the quicker speeds, got the majority of lead on target.

So, there you go.

LINK TO THE VIDEO HERE.

[1911 guy]

My own dedicated HD shotgun is a Mossberg 500 with an 18 1/2 inch barrel, cylinder bore, youth length stock, five round mag and a five round sidesaddle stocked with 2 3/4" slugs. The tube is stocked with 2 3/4" buck.

[bushmaster1313]

Dave encouraged my acquisition of, and especially my practice with, classic but still serviceable riot guns:



Wishing you all the best, Dave:

Lou