Quantcast
On Fighting Shotguns.... - Page 17 - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Tools and Technologies > Shotguns

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 4, 2012, 03:27 PM   #401
winfried
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 27, 2011
Location: Outjo , Namibia in Africa
Posts: 90
Everything discussed except effectiveness. Shot guns were made to shoot birds, and for the birds they are. Shotguns do NOT knock anybody over. That is for the movies.

Regards

WAH
winfried is offline  
Old August 12, 2012, 03:17 AM   #402
stevolene
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 24, 2011
Posts: 73
"Everything discussed except effectiveness. Shot guns were made to shoot birds, and for the birds they are. Shotguns do NOT knock anybody over. That is for the movies."

actually this isnt true, I have a brother in law that was ripped open by a shotgun blast, been dead a few years now
stevolene is offline  
Old August 12, 2012, 03:21 AM   #403
allaroundhunter
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 5, 2011
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 3,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by winfried View Post
Everything discussed except effectiveness. Shot guns were made to shoot birds, and for the birds they are. Shotguns do NOT knock anybody over. That is for the movies.

Regards

WAH
Except for those unfortunate enough to be hit by more powerful rounds.... Slugs? 00 buckshot? I assure you, shotguns are plenty effective in a defensive role against 2-legged creatures. Anyone to suggest otherwise is a fool.

Sent from my HTC One X
__________________
Quote:
There ! By golly, someone finally made a gun powerful enough for going to church, shopping for lingerie, safeguarding school crossing zones , and trick-or-treating !!
-mrmeangenes
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old August 12, 2012, 04:17 AM   #404
lefteyedom
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 18, 2006
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 712
The human Chest

I do not have the time to read all 17 pages of post in this tread. That said let me be bold enough to throw a little gas on the fire...

If you get a chance to go see one of the Bodies Revealed displays please do. Short of a college gross anatomy class it is the best lesson in shot placement. The real human plastic-ed bodies are an eye opener for those have have a had the good fortune not to see human carnage with their own eyes.

The human body is a wonderful thing, but it is not as rugged as one would think by reading ammo/gun reviews. Sure there anomalies but as a whole humans are not hard to disable/kill.

If you put an 7/8 oz of Shotgun shot into the chest cavity of a human at 15 feet the odds are in your favor that you will be the last man/woman standing.


I am currently preparing a Mossberg 500, 20 gauge for a lady friend of mine. The barrel has been shorten to 20", the stock shorten and good recoil pad installed. Total cost? $220.00

She can not operate her 9mm pistol due to a physical aliment, this weapon will allow her to sleep at easy again. The plus is she get a "kick" out of shoot Milk jug with a shotgun.
__________________
There is no right way to do a wrong thing
Deserve got nothing to do with it.
It is not that life is not fair, Life does not care
lefteyedom is offline  
Old August 12, 2012, 02:42 PM   #405
One_Jackal
member
 
 
Join Date: January 6, 2012
Posts: 542
One thing that annoys me to no end is the urban myth that buckshot perform better with a full choke. Yet every official test I have read about and every informal test I have done cylinder/improved cylinder chokes out perform a full choke every time. Full chokes deform large buckshot commonly used in home defense. Try a pizza box at 40 yards. You will see the full choke has way more flyers.
One_Jackal is offline  
Old August 12, 2012, 02:44 PM   #406
allaroundhunter
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 5, 2011
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 3,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Jackal View Post
One thing that annoys me to no end is the urban myth that buckshot perform better with a full choke. Yet every official test and every informal test I have done cylinder/improved cylinder chokes out perform a full choke every time. Full chokes deform large buckshot commonly used in home defense. Try a pizza box at 40 yards. You will see the full choke has way more flyers.
But saying that a full choke always has flyers is also false. Patterning your home defense shotgun is like sighting in a rifle. Find the right load/choke combo and stick with it.

Sent from my HTC One X
__________________
Quote:
There ! By golly, someone finally made a gun powerful enough for going to church, shopping for lingerie, safeguarding school crossing zones , and trick-or-treating !!
-mrmeangenes
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old August 14, 2012, 02:48 PM   #407
riflefan
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 2, 2012
Location: western North Carolina
Posts: 28
In response to lefteyedoms post about the Mossberg. My only current shotgun is a youth model 500c in 20ga. I replaced the original stock with one that has a pistol grip, it has a 20" barrel standard. I use this for everything, skeet, rodents, deer "at times" and keep #3 buck in it beside the bed. I think your lady friend should be quiet pleased. Having the pistol grip helps me have a little better control. The gun is very easy to handle and if 5 shots of #3 buck can't stop them I have a real problem.
__________________
Jon
riflefan is offline  
Old August 14, 2012, 05:57 PM   #408
winfried
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 27, 2011
Location: Outjo , Namibia in Africa
Posts: 90
Oh yes, at 5m a shotgun is effective, but not neccessarily instantly. Unlike many others here, this fool speak of own experiences, but I do not think it appriate that I should give details here publically.
Tell me in private mail of your own experience and I will probably be able to match your experience case by case.

I am not interested what anybody has read. But one case I would like to mention.
When we had the bush war on, army intelligence wanted a cornered terrorist alive. He got shot at with a Mossberg 12 G pump loaded with AAA. We had a chance to shoot him with proper rifles.The terry got away and is still laughing to this day. Everybody wanted to know how is that possible, I told them "shotguns are for the birds".

Except for slugs, I always refer to shotgun ballistics as confetti ballistics.

Regards

Winfried
winfried is offline  
Old August 14, 2012, 06:23 PM   #409
Youngster
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 10, 2003
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 956
I respect your experiences, but a case where birdshot was used tells you little about the effectiveness of buckshot.
Youngster is offline  
Old August 14, 2012, 07:36 PM   #410
allaroundhunter
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 5, 2011
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 3,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngster View Post
I respect your experiences, but a case where birdshot was used tells you little about the effectiveness of buckshot.
Youngster, AAA, is the English measurement equivalent of T-shot. Not quite as effective as 00 Buck, but not necessarily birdshot either. If I was issued a shotgun for military use, however, I most certainly would not want to be issued T/AAA sized shot.

If you are trying to keep someone from escaping, it doesn't make sense to try to use a shotgun in the first place though, regardless of shot size; it is too imprecise. A rifle would have been much more appropriate with a shot to the leg and then allowing the medic to tend to the combatant after capturing him.

Sent from my HTC One X
__________________
Quote:
There ! By golly, someone finally made a gun powerful enough for going to church, shopping for lingerie, safeguarding school crossing zones , and trick-or-treating !!
-mrmeangenes
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old August 14, 2012, 08:19 PM   #411
Youngster
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 10, 2003
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 956
Even #4 buckshot is reportedly pretty inconsistant as an antipersonel load, it's 00 and the other large buckshot size that gave the shotgun its reputation as being an effective close quarters combat weapon.
Youngster is offline  
Old August 15, 2012, 04:13 AM   #412
Erik M
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 14, 2009
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,621
I have owned several scatter guns over the years, all with bead sights. I recently purchased a Rem 1100 that came equipped with a barrel that had rifle sights. To my surprise I am more comfortable and more accurate with it.
__________________
| ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ |-|QUI AUDET ADIPISCITUR|
Erik M is offline  
Old August 16, 2012, 05:04 PM   #413
winfried
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 27, 2011
Location: Outjo , Namibia in Africa
Posts: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefteyedom View Post
I do not have the time to read all 17 pages of post in this tread. That said let me be bold enough to throw a little gas on the fire...

If you get a chance to go see one of the Bodies Revealed displays please do. Short of a college gross anatomy class it is the best lesson in shot placement. The real human plastic-ed bodies are an eye opener for those have have a had the good fortune not to see human carnage with their own eyes.

The human body is a wonderful thing, but it is not as rugged as one would think by reading ammo/gun reviews. Sure there anomalies but as a whole humans are not hard to disable/kill.

If you put an 7/8 oz of Shotgun shot into the chest cavity of a human at 15 feet the odds are in your favor that you will be the last man/woman standing.


I am currently preparing a Mossberg 500, 20 gauge for a lady friend of mine. The barrel has been shorten to 20", the stock shorten and good recoil pad installed. Total cost? $220.00

She can not operate her 9mm pistol due to a physical aliment, this weapon will allow her to sleep at easy again. The plus is she get a "kick" out of shoot Milk jug with a shotgun.
The problem with is that LG loaded with 6 or 9 pellets in 12 gage produces the weirdest
patterns. At 20m you could be lucky or unlucky to hit somebody, never mind flyers.
Somebody cited the weight of the shot as a measure to effectiveness.
This is incorrect. The impact of any projectile is always less than
the recoil felt by the operator. (With exception of the Gyrojet long
forgotten).
If one builds a ballistic pendulum of 60kg and shoots into it with a
30-06 or a 12 bore shotgun, the pendulum swing is 95 and 104mm only.
To give it one slight push with a finger, the pendulum moves 450mm. So
as far as weight is concerned, an index finger is more deadly than a
12 bore. One can do it also much easier mathematically. Recoil energy
is another useless figure as it changes wirth the weight of the weapon
and is no indication the amount of recoil produced by a cartridge.

Regards

Winfried
winfried is offline  
Old September 1, 2012, 10:41 PM   #414
pezo
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 675
AAA ?? Isn't that a battery size? 12 pellet magnum buck would produce a nasty wound on an assailant rest assured, in addition to slugs particulary hard cast and even standard buck. The shotgun is an awsome defense weapon. God bless america!
pezo is offline  
Old September 3, 2012, 03:09 PM   #415
PabloJ
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 17, 2010
Posts: 4,124
Twelve gauge Magnum buckshot load is good for nothing except perhaps blowing off doors of hinges. It's pretty awful anti-personnel load.
PabloJ is offline  
Old September 3, 2012, 04:46 PM   #416
bomberbill357
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 7, 2011
Posts: 59
Wow! This is a long thread. Lot's of terrific information. Don't forget 3 Gun as apractical way to get proficient. Remember: it's a game, take a good course of instruction on a regular basis.
As far as Tacticool, I have a mossberg 590 and I can not for the life of me "improve it". It's just perfect for me the way it is. Everything I tried to hang on it, now sits in a locker, while the 590 sits in the bd closet.
Thanks again for the excellent info!
bomberbill357 is offline  
Old September 3, 2012, 05:15 PM   #417
allaroundhunter
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 5, 2011
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 3,938
Quote:
Don't forget 3 Gun as apractical way to get proficient. Remember: it's a game, take a good course of instruction on a regular basis.
I would not say that 3-gun is a practical way to train for combat shotgun techniques. Ammunition used is low recoiling (usually birdshot), and it is all about speed and rarely makes competitors consider the tactical advantage. Will it help with reloading? Maybe, but the shell holders that they use are not ever used or recommended by combat instructors.

The best way is to take combat/defensive shotgun courses. They will do much more to help with "fighting shotgun" skills than 3-gun.
__________________
Quote:
There ! By golly, someone finally made a gun powerful enough for going to church, shopping for lingerie, safeguarding school crossing zones , and trick-or-treating !!
-mrmeangenes
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old October 20, 2012, 05:59 AM   #418
mharveyww1
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 7, 2009
Posts: 31
Not "Hollywood" - but damned effective!

With respect to Wllifred: You are, of course, correct. A shotgun blast is not going to send anyone tumbling backwards (or even knocked down, necessarily).

But a well placed load of 00 or slug will stop just about anyone - every time.

Uncle Sam once gave me a free vacation to that garden spot of SE Asia known as South Viet Nam. While enjoying the sights and the ambience, I had occasion to carry a Remington 870 and an M-14. I never felt under-served with either.

It was not a pleasant experience, but the practical use of the 870 left absolutely no doubt as to its's capabilities. I never had to use more than one round per target.

The shotgun, of course is for CQB. It will certainly not replace a good rifle for all-around versatility.

On a side note: I think it's interesting that the US military is bringing back the M-14. I was not a sniper, but we were using the slogan "one shot - one kill" to describe the '14' long before it became popular with the stealthy guys.

Forgetting all of the 'teething problems" the M-16 had when first in service, it was still a pretty good "stopper" (when it worked). Now, from what I hear from guys back from Iraq and Afghanistan is that even a 3-round burst to center-of-mass won't always do the job...the bad guys just keep on going!
The reason is that we got "politically correct" with the M-16's ammunition a few years back...redesigned it, and it no longer tumbles like it used to (causing MASSIVE wounds).
Now, it just goes right on through like a needle.

OK, I'm way off topic and I apologize for rambling. But, to wrap up the shotgun comment: I currently have an 870 with an extended magazine, pistol grip, tritium night sights, a 6-round sidesaddle and a Knox Stock (which practically eliminates muzzle rise and reduces felt recoil to about that of a 20 ga.). To say that I feel confident it will provide all the home defense I need is a vast understatement. Shotguns are not JUST for birds!

Mike
mharveyww1 is offline  
Old October 20, 2012, 09:27 AM   #419
IMTHDUKE
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 27, 2004
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 946
Mike

Good post....brings back those old memories...Nam 67-68....Semper Fi.
__________________
http://www.treasureislandbedandbreakfast.com
Ed Brown Kobra Carry | HK P7M8, P2000sk , P30s |Sig P239SAS, 1911 C3, P238, P938 | Colt Defender, Mustang Pocketlite, 1911 |Rohrbaugh R9 |Kimber Covert Ultra II, | Browning HP, Buckmark 22LR(suppressed)| Walter PPK(1966) | Kahr PM9 Black Rose |S&W M&P
IMTHDUKE is offline  
Old October 20, 2012, 09:23 PM   #420
chieftain
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 25, 2002
Location: The Free State of Arizona
Posts: 1,260
Mike, Duke, welcome home brothers. 67,68,69. 3rdMarDiv.

Mike my experiences around the Remington 870 were not as positive as yours. The 870 was the one model shotgun no one wanted. The 870 had a proclivity to double shuck, which would tie up the gun, often and unfortunately for the rest of your, now most likely to be, short life.

I remember in the mid 70's when Remington advertised their "new improvement' on the 870. They split the lifter so you could use your pocket knife to get that second shell out of the receiver. Not a winner.

For me the 870 was a non-starter. Personally during the war I preferred the Ithica's, and later the Mossbergs, particularly the 590 variant. Gave my 590A to my son-in-law and I now play with a Benelli M4 or a double barrel hammer gun when a 12ga fighting weapon is the ticket.

It took me to the late 90's to find out that Remington had finally fixed the double shuck problem some time in the mid 80's. Didn't do any good for some of my buddies in the Nam though. Sort of like the Matty Mattel.

I was able to hang on to my M14 into the middle of 69. I do agree that for 100 yards in the 55gr 5.56 NATO worked pretty good in the XM16E1's and the A1's. By then though I would not trust the AR system any more than the 870 family, at all. Reliability in any fighting weapon was then, and still is today job #1 for any fighting weapon.

Of course the folks that want to run your healthcare system, then chose to "fix" the existing 5.56 NATO round with the M855 62gr round that "tumbled" less. Works through the SAW "better" but who cares that it doesn't put the bad guys down as effectively. The brass and desk jockey's that make these decisions, weren't going to be wounded and killed when the bullet's didn't work as well, as the earlier rounds.

One word comes to mind, "Priorities", the typical government decision is not based on the what is needed by the troops or citizens, but what the government is interested in this week.

AS to the M14, I still have a M1A/M14 in my safe today. Stone reliable and with an effective round. The Army today is still trying to find an "effective" bullet for our service weapon 45 years after being accepted into service. Any one see a disconnect here?

Interestingly enough, no one had or has had any problem with the 30-06 or 308/7.62 NATO. They work well even when not using the most modern or up to date bullet material and/or designs.

I have always believed we need two calibers anyway. One for in town and one for out of town, I like the idea of a "do all" caliber, sounds great, but in life most duel use things don't do both things well. We are back to priorities.

So endith the rambling and inane sermon.

Good luck to all.

Fred
__________________
MINDSET - SKILLSET - TOOLSET - IN THAT ORDER! OODA -- COL John Boyd, USAF
“To lead untrained men in to war, is to waste them.” - Confucious
"Training errors are recorded on paper, tactical errors are etched in stone." - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” - Ayn Rand
Semper Fi
chieftain is offline  
Old October 20, 2012, 10:05 PM   #421
Coal Dragger
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 25, 2008
Location: Black Hills, SD
Posts: 1,202
Not that I have a lot to contribute, but in my tour in the "Sand Box" (Al Anbar Province, Iraq) in the Marines (attached to 1stMarDiv) as an infantryman I can say the Benelli M4 worked pretty well when actually deployed and used for its intended purpose. Never observed one to jam or go down for any reason, and being a semi-auto follow up shots were no doubt easier for guys who had them if for no other reason than everything else is semi or full auto and pulling the trigger again is more consistent with your muscle memory training.
Coal Dragger is offline  
Old October 22, 2012, 12:13 AM   #422
mharveyww1
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 7, 2009
Posts: 31
Remington 870 Problems?

Chieftan: Good to read your input.

It occurs to me that my noting that I carried the 870 pump AND and M-14, WOULD seem to indicate that I was 'jarhead' (lovingly expressed!).
Actually 1st CAV...where the shotguns were not nearly as widely used as in the Corps.

I had the great advantage of having grown up in a 'gun-family'. My father, who WAS a Leatherneck in WWII (Guadalcanal, New Georgia) was an avid shooter and antique gun collector (I actually got my first gun the same week I got my first bicycle!).

The upshot is that I had been using pump shotguns (especially the 870) since I was a kid. And although I know there were some mechanical/design "issues" with the weapons in combat use, I can't help but think that "human error", especially under such extreme stress was a contributing factor.
I never experienced a failure of any kind.

How I came to hold onto the M-14 I carried to Nam while almost all the others around me had already converted to the "Plastic Fantastic" is a story for another post. I'll just say that "greybeard" First Sergeants had more sense
than the 'West Pointers' in higher echelons.

Mike
mharveyww1 is offline  
Old October 23, 2012, 09:04 PM   #423
PTMCCAIN
member
 
 
Join Date: January 1, 2011
Posts: 545
OK, some people have busted my chops for my previous videos showing how quickly the Benelli M4 can cycle, claiming that I'm obiously just spraying pellets all over the place and no way can I hit anything when I shoot it so quickly.

Well...I thought, "That's a fair enough point."

I got the M4 out to the gun club and my son and I put it through its paces against a few very suspicious looking characters with handgun and black ski masks on.

I think the conclusion is simply this:

Yes, the Benelli M4 is manageable enough to get a lot of lead down range in a big hurry and be accurate at a self-distance distance.


Please note....


NO, I am NOT advocating ever shooting a shotgun this quickly in a SD situation and yes, I know pellets missed the BGs too, but...as you will see, with more controlled double tapping, etc. I got the lead on target just fine, and even at the quicker speeds, got the majority of lead on target.

So, there you go.

LINK TO THE VIDEO HERE.
PTMCCAIN is offline  
Old November 3, 2012, 01:50 AM   #424
1911 guy
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 5, 2005
Location: Garrettsville, Oh.
Posts: 5,187
My own dedicated HD shotgun is a Mossberg 500 with an 18 1/2 inch barrel, cylinder bore, youth length stock, five round mag and a five round sidesaddle stocked with 2 3/4" slugs. The tube is stocked with 2 3/4" buck.
__________________
I wish I believed in reincarnation. Where's Charles Martel when you need him?

http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/index.php
yes, I play the bagpipes. No, I don't wear a skirt. It's called a kilt.
1911 guy is offline  
Old November 4, 2012, 10:36 PM   #425
bushmaster1313
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 26, 2008
Location: Peoples Republik of New Jersey
Posts: 3,511
Dave encouraged my acquisition of, and especially my practice with, classic but still serviceable riot guns:



Wishing you all the best, Dave:

Lou
__________________
Vote Responsibly
Buy American
bushmaster1313 is offline  
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.