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Old October 23, 2012, 07:17 PM   #1076
J-Bar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patocazador View Post
The problem is I don't have the tracking skills of a Bushman. The half-inch hole will surely kill the animal but they don't leave much of a blood trail.
I believe you refuse to accept the evidence before you, in post #1065. By the way congratulations on taking a deer with a muzzleloader. I think any game taken by any muzzleloader is a trophy and I offer my sincere congratulations.

The trophy you took fell to a heavy relatively non-expanding chunk of lead, not to the high tech jacketed expanding bullet. There is nothing that would make the deer deader. A deeply penetrating large diameter lead ball in the right place will not leave you much of a tracking chore. That expanding bullet would have, if you did not have your ROA as backup. What happened to you is not a fluke.

And I don't think using pistol primers to ignite the powder charge would make any noticeable difference. A chrono might tell you that you added a few feet per second, but terminal performance on the game would be the same. It went all the way through with a cap for crying out loud.
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Old October 24, 2012, 06:07 PM   #1077
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I think a wide, flat nosed boolit would be your best bet. It'll punch a nearly full caliber hole through the deer, much like a hole punch does with paper.
Especially if it's hard cast. Then, you have a hole in the deer that will bleed profusely and won't close up.
Good enough for big, dangerous game, good enough for medium game.
Pistols don't generate the velocity needed to deliver the level of hydrostatic shock that a rifle round generates. So, we load them to punch a clean, free bleeding hole that gives us a good blood trail do follow, and a game animal that dies quickly.
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Old November 6, 2012, 05:03 PM   #1078
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Primer capsules

Hi Doak,

Very interesting concept! Sent you a PM.
Appreciate your efforts.

Regards,

Jgray
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Old November 8, 2012, 10:42 PM   #1079
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Quote:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....postcount=1051

Primer Capsule News

...Foto "S7 Capsules" shows 3 of a set of 9. The other 6 are in the stainless ROA successfully test fired Thurs. 18 Oct. Can fire both small pistol & rifle primers...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachmen...1&d=1350757065

Doak
Marvellous work Doak!

I was thinking for a long time about different concept using boxer primers; back plate with firing pins (as for conversion cylinder for standard cartridge), with cylinder bored to accept boxer primer:



With this setup, I will have just two parts to handle; cylinder and back plate with firing pins. Also, cylinder could be made to use 209 shotgun primers. In addition, here is adaptor that will allow using small pistol primers in cylinder bored for 209 primers:



VariFlame Primer Adapter

Last edited by Onty; November 9, 2012 at 12:15 AM.
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Old November 9, 2012, 09:50 AM   #1080
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Man I would like one with 209 primers! That brings new powders into play, like Blackhorn.

I have a Kirst conversion. If that backplate could be leveraged to fire 209 primers, that would be awesome.
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Old November 9, 2012, 11:27 AM   #1081
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I have an ROA with a Kirst conversion and thus a back plate with firing pins. I also happen to have several ROA cylinders. I would be more than willing to send these to someone and have them modify the standard BP cylinder to fire 209 caps using the Kirst back plate....any takers? Doak? You up for it?
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Old November 9, 2012, 12:04 PM   #1082
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Onty

Cool stuff! Love the simplicity! What I see in the fotos is the solution. I'd love to know what the problems are. :-D That's where the challenge is, yes?

Kindest Regards,
Doak
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Old November 9, 2012, 12:15 PM   #1083
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You really need to take me up on my offer and mod my spare cylinder to work with the Kirst back plate to fire 209 primers...

It's close to Christmas....
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Old November 9, 2012, 12:19 PM   #1084
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This reminds me...with Doak's primer conversion....will the cap be hot enough to set off Blackhorn 209 powder? It should be. I suspect shotgun primer caps were used in today's B/P rifles because they are easier to handle. They're no hotter than standard rifle or pistol caps.
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Old November 9, 2012, 12:20 PM   #1085
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AbitNutz

Wouldn't hurt to look at the stuff & see what comes to mind. Combined w/Onty's set up, it mite be a contender!
Right now I'm kinda busy makin', what my wife calls "nubbins", primer capsules for you's guys.

This would have to be on a "slow cooker", at least for the near future.

You've got my fone & e-mail: rattle my cage after ya exhaust all your sensible options. :-D

Ha! Be careful what ya wish for, ya mite get it!

Kindest Regards,
Doak
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Old November 10, 2012, 08:08 AM   #1086
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Quote:
Cool stuff! Love the simplicity! What I see in the fotos is the solution. I'd love to know what the problems are. :-D That's where the challenge is, yes?

Kindest Regards,
Doak
The problem is to make one and try it . I really urge you to go with this project ASAP, I can even start a thread for group buy (GB) on castboolits, to see what would be response. My suggestion is to get one of those conversion cylinders and use same method for back plate with firing pins.

I will try to design another idea that would be awesome, to use safely smokeless powders in ROA. Many of us would like to shoot it in indoor ranges during cold days, especially in northern areas. Shooting ROA indoor, using black powder or one of those smoky substitutes, is big no-no in almost all indoor ranges. Also, I had seen corrosion on a number of stainless ROA-s, as a result of shooting all that highly corrosive stuff.

BTW, I am looking for at least one, preferably couple spare stainless cylinders for ROA.
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Old November 10, 2012, 08:50 AM   #1087
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Onty,

Trailboss? Do not compress. Not encouraging you to try it just wondering if there is any published data for it.

-kBob
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Old November 10, 2012, 11:25 AM   #1088
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Combining Onty's concept and Abitnutz' idea is the solution to a problem that has been eatin at me for over a year now.
The ability to shoot rubber boolits in a ROA for indoor shootin.
Mmm, but thinkin 'bout it, a 209 may be jist a weeeee bit hot fer rubber boolits.

No wait !!!!! I jist realized that Doaks' setup will work just fine !!!!


Oh boy, i can't wait wiggle.gif
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Old November 10, 2012, 01:11 PM   #1089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onty View Post
Shooting ROA indoor, using black powder or one of those smoky substitutes, is big no-no in almost all indoor ranges. Also, I had seen corrosion on a number of stainless ROA-s, as a result of shooting all that highly corrosive stuff.
I have shot nothing but real black powder in my stainless ROA for 15 years and it doesn't have any corrosion ... stains, yes .. but no corrosion.
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Old November 10, 2012, 09:07 PM   #1090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patocazador View Post
I have shot nothing but real black powder in my stainless ROA for 15 years and it doesn't have any corrosion ... stains, yes .. but no corrosion.
I have to be more precise; I am not talking about deep corrosion that made whole gun looking red, but some red spots were clearly visible, especially around forcing cone and hammer. From what I understood, black powder isn't very bad, the real problem are those substitute powders.

Back to design. Here is my proposal for ROA cylinder for smokeless powders and 209 primer:



The idea is to have cylinder with stepped chambers, with front end .4520-.4525 dia (short counterbore about .456-.457 dia optional), and aft end about .430 dia, making powder space same as on loaded 45 Schofield when using 255-SWC like Lyman 454424 or other similar bullets. This will make cylinder wall about .085 thick between chambers in powder are, same as on 44 magnum SBH.

Going this way, we can use 45 Schofield loading data, with built in safety feature that will prevent accidental reduce of powder space. When combined with same same quality and strength of the steel as on standard, modern centre fire revolvers, we should have safe and practical way of shooting smokeless powders in ROA. If you are concerned about .065˝ wall thickness between chambers in bullet area, please keep in mind that in conversion cylinders for shooting standard 45 Colt loads wall thickness is no more than .045 (probably less, I have no such cylinder to measure it), yet those cylinders are safe to shoot standard 45 Colt loads rated at 14 000 psi, see http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm .

Let me know what you think.

Cheers, Onty.

Last edited by Onty; November 13, 2012 at 06:19 PM.
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Old November 13, 2012, 09:44 PM   #1091
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Cylinders for the Old Army......

Interesting stuff, all of the above, BUT, using some sort of backplate with a stationary single firing pin just like the Kirst Kartridge Konverter would drastically REDUCE the size of the MAIN CYLINDER that holds your powder charge. You would end up with a SHORTY cylinder not capable of holding no more than maybe 25grs. of black powder!!! Now, however, using smokeless powders is another matter altogether and WOULD WORK FOR SURE, as all you need is a bit of space for that. A shorty cylinder equipped with nipples to fire regular boxer primers, loaded with the correct and proper smokeless powder, along with that stationary backplate Ala'Kirst with single firing pin would be the way to go. Yes, yes, that would work. We all know that would work. Like a charm it would! RIGHT? Of course it would work. But than how would we remove those spent boxer primers? Rather, how do we now de-cap the cylinder? Gotta have that tool....Right. Now, increased presures and velocity from our now smokeless firing cylinder would dictate, NO, mandate actually, that our bullet be extra tight in that cylinder, can't use pure lead, it would jump the cylinder in recoil and would jam-up the cylinder after the first shot! Not so good! Nope, not good. Now maybe if we can crimp the cylinder to stop bullet jump. Wait! Crimp the cylinder! Oh my, am I nuts or what! Maybe a nice roll crimp on that cylinder would hold those slugs tight? Hard-cast bullets would be the way to go if we want them slugs to be tight. No lubes now 'cause that ain't gonna help. We will need a nice rammer or outboard loader with a long handle to press fit those jump-free bullets in there. Nice and tight. The only way to go! Wow! Velocity, heavy hard hitting slugs, clean burning powders, the reliability of modern boxer primers, etc. I ask myself.. .....Where is all these taking me? All of the above logical and great ideas ideas would work just fine as long as we don't try to magnumize the ROA with smokeless powders and hot loads. Too many variables step in. Or rather too many creepy scary variables start to set in if we are not carefull. Someone, somehow, somewhere will sort all these out I am sure. I will for now stick with my regular Kirst Konverters firing factory fodder without a worry in the world. They have worked fine for me for hundreds and hundreds of rounds without a hitch or problem at all. All the very best to you all, great ideas by the way! Really great ideas.
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Last edited by SUMIKITO; November 14, 2012 at 01:45 AM.
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Old November 14, 2012, 12:55 PM   #1092
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Just took old girl out yesterday.

http://youtu.be/pPhy_tHqaVc

27.5 FFF 220 Grain Conical and an Ox yoke wonder wad.

On that third round a huge chunk of Cap landed on my hand and roasted it pretty good, but.... comes with the territory I guess =)
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Old November 14, 2012, 08:26 PM   #1093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUMIKITO View Post
... Wait! Crimp the cylinder! Oh my, am I nuts or what! Maybe a nice roll crimp on that cylinder would hold those slugs tight?... Really great ideas.
Great idea, just let us know how you crimped yours. Sorry, I couldn’t resist .

As I mentioned, idea was to get 45 Schofield level loads, using smokeless powder, so we can shoot in indoor ranges when temperature dips bellow 0°F.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Reaver View Post
Just took old girl out yesterday.

http://youtu.be/pPhy_tHqaVc

27.5 FFF 220 Grain Conical and an Ox yoke wonder wad.

On that third round a huge chunk of Cap landed on my hand and roasted it pretty good, but.... comes with the territory I guess =)
Shooting wearing just T-shirt? Boy, I am jealous...

See this thread, some interesting loads listed, http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=72845 . Also, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQVu3d3NpxU , look how much ROA rolls up.

Another good source http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/ROA_complete_.pdf
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Old November 17, 2012, 11:24 AM   #1094
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Winters in the South are indeed nice. At least, when they're mild. When they're cold, they suck, because it's cold, wet, and windy.
Summers are miserable, with humidity up to 100%, and temps in the high 90s to low 100s.

My Blackhawk Flattop .44 Special rolls up like that with stout loads.
I'd thought about using the Lee REAL bullet in the ROA. I have that mold, and cast for my .45 Sam Yang with it.
Now, I have another use for it. I bet it'll hold a good bit of lube in those grooves.
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Last edited by Jaymo; November 17, 2012 at 11:36 AM.
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Old November 19, 2012, 11:26 PM   #1095
Jim, West PA
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Got me a package from Doak the other day.

IMGP1855.JPG
IMGP1857.JPG

I will quickly say that that man is not only a blessing to our hobby and THE most unselfishly giving man that i have ever encountered,he is also a Master craftsman and a Master machinist. His attention to detail is second to none.
Just as i anticipated,His work has opened up a whole new world of indoor shooting for Janet and I by allowing us to finaly shoot rubber boolits from our ROA's.
I only got to quickly try some SPM primers under some X-Ring rubber boolits.I will soon try some standard SP primers and also some SR primers.
I will also share my entire experience and my response to Doak and his reply just as soon as i get some time.
For those of you fortunate enough to be on his mailing list...you are in for one SERIOUS treat.
If yer gonna give the rubber boolits a try, seat the bullet before ya insert the primer or the air pocket won't let it seat.

This is my initial 'report to Doak......
Quote:
I got a chance today to play a bit with the capsules.
I am shootin X-Ring rubber bullets from my 7.5" stainless ROA.
I first tried my 5.5" FS stainless but the capsule would not thread into the cylinder.(Cylinder threads obviously need chased.) Let me correct that. I tried only one chamber and when the capsule would not thread in I stopped there and went to another gun.
All capsules thread right into the every chamber of this gun with ease.The threads of the cylinder were already lubed with Anti Sieze but I see that you also lubed the threads of the capsules.
The priming tool is perfectly crafted and works flawlessly.
I find it, ( for myself), very difficult to 'inject; just one primer at a time tho when the tool is 'loaded'. Most likely it is my poor vision that creates this issue.So, what i do is just pick up one primer at a time and inject it.Now, comes the very 'tricky' part. That is, keeping the primimg tool perfectly in line with the capsule opening so that the primer goes straight on axis with the tool and the capsule. Your work is so precise that there is no margin at all for error here. I think that maybe a slight chamfer, if possible, at the mouth of the capsule could remedy this.
What i do tho is, after i pick up the primer with the tool, i push it about half way out of the primer tool so that i can 'set' the primer into the opening of the capsule instead of the priming tool itself, and i then inject it. This is the only way that i can get it to work for me.Tho not as critical as with the primer fully in the priming tool, i still must keep the capsule, the primer and the priming tool on the same axis or i can get a canted primer in the capsule opening.With a steady push, the primer seater will send the primer home tho. Which BTW, this tool works perfectly.
Note: before i forget: a reloaders primer tray is a must have for loading the priming tool. It allows you to flip the primers without having to touch them.
Having been an extreemist of sorts in my past when it came to loading for bench rest type accuracy in all the rifles that i built, i used to say " i allways attempt to achieve EXTREEEM ballistic uniformity" , i can say that your firing pin length and protrusion is absolutely perfect and firing pin to primer strikes are also perfect. Couldn't ask for a prettier dimple in the primers.
I did this initial shooting using CCI SPM primers and i seated the X-Ring bullet fully at the bottom of the chamber.BTW,the head of the plunger in the priming tool is perfect for seating .45 rubber bullets.
Depriming takes a bit of a tap on the depriming tool to knock 'em loose.One could use the handle of one of the capsule screwdrives but in my opinion that would be blasphemous to mark such a beautiful piece of craftsmanship up doing so.
Oh, speaking of the drivers. The large one for the capsule body stands just a bit proud of the sides of the capsule itself, therefore making it a bit of tight fit, at least on a few of my chambers' nipple area,making it tricky to install the capsule without 'scratching' into the nipple area srounding wall.
This is great being able to shoot rubber bullets in my ROA and use the C&B cylinder. I 'spect i'll be usin up a lot o' primers this winter.I'm fortunate to have about 35' of indoor range from my 'parlor to my kitchen. Tho 15-20 is all that is needed.

I wanted to ask you. Once the threads are chased, will the cylinder still be able to accept the nipples for standard C&B use ? Mmm. ..on 2nd thot. All i gotta do to answer that is thread one o' my nipples into the Work Block.
His response.....
Quote:
Hey Jim ~
Thanks for the feedback. Love it! Couldn't tell from your PM if the rubber bullets made it out of the end of the barrel? I'm guessin' they did?

Yes. I left the outside driver blades the full 5/16'' OD of the drill rod, for the strength of the blade prongs.
They don't rub on any of my ROA's, but that's not to say there aren't variations in other cylinders. You might wanna round off, just a bit, the sharp outer corner edges of the blades w/a diamond stone or 600grit paper on a safe-sided file.

Leaving the blades full OD is something I just started doing. Makes 'em stronger & trims a little time off makin' 'em. Might hafta rethink that. Lemme know if it's a chronic problem for all your ROA's and I'll make ya another set of drivers.

Using the Emuge tap in the nipple holes has no effect on the fit of factory nipples. Unless the factory nipples are from a bad batch anyway. I've noticed extreme variation in the OD of factory nipple threads. All the Emuge tap does is open up the holes that are too tight and get 'em up to spec. 12-28. It's a very accurate tap and designed to be used in heat treated, tuff materials. I try to hold the capsule threads to close tolerance for strength. Can't really have close tolerance in holes w/variation.

Yes. Please do share any of this stuff on the ROA forum. I prolly otta post up a pdf copy of the user's guide on the forum too.

Would love to hear, anytime, what your experiences are w/the capsules.

Kindest Regards,
BTW, yes, the rubber boolits did indeed make "it out of the end of the Bbl ".
Accuracy was a bit irratic tho. 1.5" at about 20-25'.
I'll try standard SP primers and SR primers and see if this improves.
If i recall correctly, we get our best rubber boolit accuracy from our .38's usin SPM primers.

Thanks to Doak, shooting ROA's for Janet and i has officialy moved indoors for the winter.
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Last edited by Jim, West PA; November 19, 2012 at 11:58 PM.
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Old November 20, 2012, 01:17 AM   #1096
Doak
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User's Guide: Primer Capsule Kit

A copy of this User's Guide is shipped w/every kit. Might be good to have a copy here, on record, in case someone's goes missing.
And y'all can become familiar w/the drill before your kit arrives.
Takes about 2.5 weeks to complete a kit, baring interruptions, like Thanksgiving. :-D

Doak
Attached Files
File Type: pdf User's Guide 1.PDF (1.06 MB, 32 views)
File Type: pdf User's Guide 2.PDF (1.06 MB, 17 views)
File Type: pdf User's Guide 3.PDF (1.06 MB, 13 views)
File Type: pdf User's Guide 4.PDF (1.06 MB, 11 views)
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Old November 20, 2012, 01:18 AM   #1097
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Last page of the Guide.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf User's Guide 5.PDF (1.06 MB, 14 views)
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Old November 20, 2012, 05:11 AM   #1098
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I can't wait. Christmas may be very good this year.
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Old November 20, 2012, 02:11 PM   #1099
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I think I'm in need of a defibrillator, heart just skipped several beats. :-)
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Old November 22, 2012, 08:25 AM   #1100
Yamavira
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Ruger Old Army Spares

Hi from the UK
I have recently bought a ROA which has been fitted with a modified cylinder enabling nitro powder & shotgun primers to be used.
To load the cylinder is removed from the frame. then the back of the cylinder, with 6 firing pins, is removed. Shotgun primers are inserted into the back of the cylinder, the plate replaced & the cylinder refitted into the frame. A small quantity of nitro powder is added to each chamber & a ball or lead RN bullet seated on top of the powder. Works well.
I have 3 questions.
I know that this modified cylinder was manufactured on the USA & then imported into the UK. Can anyone suggest which USA company could have manufactured these cylinders.
Spares for the ROA are few & far between. Is there a company which makes/sells nipples for the original black powder cylinder.
Can wooden grips stil be bought for the revolver. Who markets them.

In the UK we can no longer have nitro "handguns" but are permitted "muzzle loading" revolvers. Hence the demand for nitro cylinders. In addition we must have permission on our firearms ticket to own both the revolver & separately for the "additional" cylinder, whether that be the modified nitro cylinder or the original black powder cylinder.

Cheers
yamavira.
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