Bad Primers?

Demos · January 30, 2013, 07:59 PM

Hi guys,
I've loaded 30.06 for a while and some 8mm Mauser and I went to test my first loads of .223 and had several duds. In working up charges, the first 20 shot without fail. Over the next 20, about 15 failed to fire. After those 15, I shot 45 PMC Bronze without fail. All of the reloads used the same tray of new WSR primers, poured into the same primer flip tray, picked up with the same tube, primed on the same Hornady LnL AP, all cases were lubed with Hornady case lube, delubed with a cloth with a small amount of rubbing alcohol, and all had solid hits on the primer.
Any opinions on what could be causing this?

Thanks,
Demos

eam3clm@att.net · January 30, 2013, 09:33 PM

Did you try to shoot the ones that failed a second time? The only time I had one fail to light off, it was not seated all the way. This includes wolf and tula primers. what gun are you shooting them through?

parker51 · January 31, 2013, 12:01 AM

Happened to me a couple of times and found out it was caused by no powder. Not sure how I missed putting powder in those rounds on a progressive but I did. The primers fired just fine. As asked above, did you try shooting the round a second time? If not, that is the first thing to try as the primers might not have been seated deep enough initially.

ArchAngelCD · January 31, 2013, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eam3clm@att.net

Did you try to shoot the ones that failed a second time? The only time I had one fail to light off, it was not seated all the way. This includes wolf and tula primers. what gun are you shooting them through?

This sounds like the right track...

ReloaderFred · January 31, 2013, 01:28 AM

The primers weren't seated all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket, so the primer moved forward when struck by the firing pin, cushioning the blow. Primers need to be seated .004" below flush, or as close to that as you can get. Otherwise, the anvil won't be set in the primer and the pellet of priming compound won't get crushed, which is what ignites it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Demos · January 31, 2013, 06:47 AM

Hi,
I attempted to fire them all a second time (and a few a third), thinking it might have been weak hits, but none went off. Also, I can't imagine I missed powder in any, let alone that many, but I'm planning on pulling all of them anyway and I'll confirm that in a few days.
If it simply ends up being a matter of not seating them all the way, does anyone know a way to get a Hornady LnL AP to rise up a little higher, or should I start uniforming my primer pockets to make it more consistent?
Thanks for the input,
Demos

Ky Larry · January 31, 2013, 07:11 AM

I got a pack (100) of bad CCI primers a few years ago. About half wouldn't go off with repeated strikes. I got a pack of Win LR primers a few years ago that caused a proven load for my .30-06 to string 3-4" vertically (underignition).Of the billions of primers produced each year, there are bound to be a few duds. I'd try some of the same brand primers with a different lot number. Also, make sure the primer pockets are clean and the primers are fully seated. Good luck and keep us posted.

Blue68f100 · January 31, 2013, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demos

Hi,
If it simply ends up being a matter of not seating them all the way, does anyone know a way to get a Hornady LnL AP to rise up a little higher, or should I start uniforming my primer pockets to make it more consistent?
Thanks for the input,
Demos

My press has over 20k loads through it. And created a pretty dimple but was still seating primers ok. To generate more force you can grab the front support for leverage. There are several ways to approach this. You can just simply put a thin piece of steel where it's hitting. Or you can do a more permeate approach. I drilled and tapped the base to take a set screw. The set screw head is just the right size to fit the primer plunger stem. To go this route you will need a short bit, 90 deg drill, starter and bottom hole tap. I used SS set screws 1/4" long #8 x 24tpi. The set screw head sets 1/64" above the base. I did use some blue loctite to lock it in place.

I posted some pictures on a thread several years ago when I did this. So doing a search on my ID should bring it up.

SlamFire1 · January 31, 2013, 10:37 AM

I had a self created problem. I reamed the primer pockets too deep in my 308 LC match brass. Worked fine in my M1a but caused misfires inside my M70. I took that brass, with firing pin indentations from the M70, and shot the stuff in my M1a. Worked fine except for one case.

You can see the fired brass and the misfired brass in this picture.

I took that one case and knocked out the primer. I put the primer on a stove burner with a cast iron pan over the whole. The primer went bang!

I believe that the primer cake may get busted with firing pin strikes that are not powerful enough to set the cake off.

CCI has stated that high primers are the most common cause of misfires. The anvil has to be set firmly on a hard surface and the primer cake pushed into the anvil.

Cornerpost · January 31, 2013, 10:51 AM

Demos, I have the same problem with my LNL. Hornady says they're working on redesigning the press, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening anytime soon.

You can re-engineer your press, as Blue68f100 did, or just prime off press. I use a RCBS hand prime. That way I know it's seated all the way! Plus I'm not exhausted after 200 rounds of trying to seat them on the LNL AP. 70# of force is what Hornady claims it takes to seat a primer fully. My hand prime doesn't take that much force to get the job done. Good luck!

KeithET · January 31, 2013, 12:46 PM

Did you use brass that had crimped primers by any chance? If you don't remove the crimp completely you can have problems seating new primers. Just checking.

KeithET

dickttx · January 31, 2013, 04:21 PM

I had a problem once, a week or so ago, where the primers were not fully seating on my LnL. I was pretty embarased when I finally realized than the cap screw holding my shellplate had loosened a little.

eam3clm@att.net · January 31, 2013, 07:32 PM

The primer anvil will make a small dimple into the press with enough use. I superglued a dime to the press where the anvil hits. It was not causing a problem, but I wanted to fix it before it did.

Demos · Yesterday, 09:55 AM

Hi guys,
After a long delay I finally had a chance to try more of the reloads I had made. Before heading out I tried to seat the primers a but deeper and I only had one that did not fire on the first hit, and that fired on the second attempt. It looks like those who called high primers had it right.
I then looked at my press closer and saw the lnl dimple under the priming ram so I added a thin piece of steel just smaller than the diameter of the ram so I can seat them a bit deeper now.
Thanks for all the help,
Demos

BunnMan · Yesterday, 10:53 AM

Maybe I oughtta have a look at that too. I load on an LNL and have had a few duds with WSP in 9mm and 40. Winchester primers are the only ones I've had the issue with and they were all from the same batch. I posted about it in another primer thread a few weeks back and got a lot of the high primer replies as well. If that's the case, it must do some sort of damage when the firing pin drives the primer the rest of the way in because repeated strikes don't set mine off either. Prior to this weekend I had maybe 6 failures. This past weekend I had 2 duds in 250 rounds...all out of my 9mm, the 40 ran fine. You can see in the pics these aren't light strikes...

One thing that might be an issue?? After the slide slams home on the cartridge they get a few thousandths shorter. I seat to around 1.067" with these bullets. COL below is after being chambered 3 times.

COL 1.062" (1.060" minimum Hornady #8)
Case length .745" (.754" max, .749" trim to)

-BunnMan

GLOOB · Yesterday, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Worked fine in my M1a but caused misfires inside my M70.

'Twere me, I woulda checked my firing pin protrusion. Maybe the M70 is out of spec, or at least closer to min spec. I'd a changed it to max and see if that worked.

As a reloader, I prefer my firearms to accept the widest range of "bad" handloads as possible, including firing LPP instead of LRP.

rcmodel · Yesterday, 08:46 PM

I'd suggest you check your sizing die adjustment too.

If you are pushing the shoulders back too far, you are creating artificial excess headspace.

That lets the whole round set too deep in the chamber for the firing pin to hit the primer a full force blow.

And it will also lead to short case life and cracked cases / case separations long before their time.

Set the sizing die so the sized cases will just allow the bolt to close on whichever of your two rifles has the tightest headspace.

rc

January 30, 2013, 07:59 PM	#1
Demos Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Posts: 100	Bad Primers? Hi guys, I've loaded 30.06 for a while and some 8mm Mauser and I went to test my first loads of .223 and had several duds. In working up charges, the first 20 shot without fail. Over the next 20, about 15 failed to fire. After those 15, I shot 45 PMC Bronze without fail. All of the reloads used the same tray of new WSR primers, poured into the same primer flip tray, picked up with the same tube, primed on the same Hornady LnL AP, all cases were lubed with Hornady case lube, delubed with a cloth with a small amount of rubbing alcohol, and all had solid hits on the primer. Any opinions on what could be causing this? Thanks, Demos

January 31, 2013, 01:28 AM	#5
ReloaderFred Member Join Date: April 28, 2005 Location: Oregon Coast Posts: 4,545	The primers weren't seated all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket, so the primer moved forward when struck by the firing pin, cushioning the blow. Primers need to be seated .004" below flush, or as close to that as you can get. Otherwise, the anvil won't be set in the primer and the pellet of priming compound won't get crushed, which is what ignites it. Hope this helps. Fred __________________ After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs

January 31, 2013, 07:11 AM	#7
Ky Larry Member Join Date: May 22, 2003 Location: Ky Posts: 3,203	I got a pack (100) of bad CCI primers a few years ago. About half wouldn't go off with repeated strikes. I got a pack of Win LR primers a few years ago that caused a proven load for my .30-06 to string 3-4" vertically (underignition).Of the billions of primers produced each year, there are bound to be a few duds. I'd try some of the same brand primers with a different lot number. Also, make sure the primer pockets are clean and the primers are fully seated. Good luck and keep us posted. __________________ "Suppose you were a congressman. Now,suppose you were an idiot. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain

January 31, 2013, 10:37 AM	#9
SlamFire1 Member Join Date: December 29, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 5,901	I had a self created problem. I reamed the primer pockets too deep in my 308 LC match brass. Worked fine in my M1a but caused misfires inside my M70. I took that brass, with firing pin indentations from the M70, and shot the stuff in my M1a. Worked fine except for one case. You can see the fired brass and the misfired brass in this picture. I took that one case and knocked out the primer. I put the primer on a stove burner with a cast iron pan over the whole. The primer went bang! I believe that the primer cake may get busted with firing pin strikes that are not powerful enough to set the cake off. CCI has stated that high primers are the most common cause of misfires. The anvil has to be set firmly on a hard surface and the primer cake pushed into the anvil. __________________ Accuracy is a skill acquired through constant practice.

January 31, 2013, 04:21 PM	#12
dickttx Member Join Date: February 9, 2011 Location: Fort Worth Posts: 638	I had a problem once, a week or so ago, where the primers were not fully seating on my LnL. I was pretty embarased when I finally realized than the cap screw holding my shellplate had loosened a little. __________________ Education teaches you the rules; experience teaches you the exceptions. (Plagiarized from Claude Clay)

January 30, 2013, 09:33 PM	#2
eam3clm@att.net Member Join Date: December 2, 2010 Posts: 485	Did you try to shoot the ones that failed a second time? The only time I had one fail to light off, it was not seated all the way. This includes wolf and tula primers. what gun are you shooting them through?

January 31, 2013, 12:01 AM	#3
parker51 Member Join Date: May 4, 2009 Location: West Virginia Posts: 870	Happened to me a couple of times and found out it was caused by no powder. Not sure how I missed putting powder in those rounds on a progressive but I did. The primers fired just fine. As asked above, did you try shooting the round a second time? If not, that is the first thing to try as the primers might not have been seated deep enough initially.

January 31, 2013, 06:47 AM	#6
Demos Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Posts: 100	Hi, I attempted to fire them all a second time (and a few a third), thinking it might have been weak hits, but none went off. Also, I can't imagine I missed powder in any, let alone that many, but I'm planning on pulling all of them anyway and I'll confirm that in a few days. If it simply ends up being a matter of not seating them all the way, does anyone know a way to get a Hornady LnL AP to rise up a little higher, or should I start uniforming my primer pockets to make it more consistent? Thanks for the input, Demos

January 31, 2013, 10:51 AM	#10
Cornerpost Member Join Date: February 8, 2012 Location: SD Posts: 8	Demos, I have the same problem with my LNL. Hornady says they're working on redesigning the press, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening anytime soon. You can re-engineer your press, as Blue68f100 did, or just prime off press. I use a RCBS hand prime. That way I know it's seated all the way! Plus I'm not exhausted after 200 rounds of trying to seat them on the LNL AP. 70# of force is what Hornady claims it takes to seat a primer fully. My hand prime doesn't take that much force to get the job done. Good luck!

January 31, 2013, 12:46 PM	#11
KeithET Member Join Date: March 12, 2008 Location: SF Bay Area CA Posts: 91	Did you use brass that had crimped primers by any chance? If you don't remove the crimp completely you can have problems seating new primers. Just checking. KeithET

January 31, 2013, 07:32 PM	#13
eam3clm@att.net Member Join Date: December 2, 2010 Posts: 485	The primer anvil will make a small dimple into the press with enough use. I superglued a dime to the press where the anvil hits. It was not causing a problem, but I wanted to fix it before it did.

Yesterday, 09:55 AM	#14
Demos Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Posts: 100	Hi guys, After a long delay I finally had a chance to try more of the reloads I had made. Before heading out I tried to seat the primers a but deeper and I only had one that did not fire on the first hit, and that fired on the second attempt. It looks like those who called high primers had it right. I then looked at my press closer and saw the lnl dimple under the priming ram so I added a thin piece of steel just smaller than the diameter of the ram so I can seat them a bit deeper now. Thanks for all the help, Demos

Yesterday, 10:53 AM	#15
BunnMan Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Posts: 134	Maybe I oughtta have a look at that too. I load on an LNL and have had a few duds with WSP in 9mm and 40. Winchester primers are the only ones I've had the issue with and they were all from the same batch. I posted about it in another primer thread a few weeks back and got a lot of the high primer replies as well. If that's the case, it must do some sort of damage when the firing pin drives the primer the rest of the way in because repeated strikes don't set mine off either. Prior to this weekend I had maybe 6 failures. This past weekend I had 2 duds in 250 rounds...all out of my 9mm, the 40 ran fine. You can see in the pics these aren't light strikes... One thing that might be an issue?? After the slide slams home on the cartridge they get a few thousandths shorter. I seat to around 1.067" with these bullets. COL below is after being chambered 3 times. COL 1.062" (1.060" minimum Hornady #8) Case length .745" (.754" max, .749" trim to) -BunnMan Last edited by BunnMan; Yesterday at 11:01 AM.

Yesterday, 08:46 PM	#17
rcmodel Member Join Date: September 17, 2007 Location: Eastern KS Posts: 41,904	I'd suggest you check your sizing die adjustment too. If you are pushing the shoulders back too far, you are creating artificial excess headspace. That lets the whole round set too deep in the chamber for the firing pin to hit the primer a full force blow. And it will also lead to short case life and cracked cases / case separations long before their time. Set the sizing die so the sized cases will just allow the bolt to close on whichever of your two rifles has the tightest headspace. rc __________________ Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Or all your primers in a glass jar!