Catastrophic Failure, ALL CARACAL OWNERS PLEASE READ AND BE SAFE - Page 2

Rinspeed · February 14, 2013, 04:36 PM

Quote:

If you're firing Chinese fricking ammo through the weapon - you're not being "extremely" careful with it.

I'm not saying the ammo caused the failure - I'm just saying you have a contradiction.

Very hard to argue with that.

**9mmepiphany** · February 14, 2013, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trent

Can we even get these in the states? I've never even heard of them before.

Yes, I got to shot one at the 2012 SHOT Show...they've been making guns since 2003... and interviewed the designer. You can the article here on Shooting Reviews

They are really nice guns and offer several improvements over his previous designs...Glock, FN...and they even have a USPSA team which includes JJ Racaza

Shuler13 · February 14, 2013, 05:18 PM

I have one and will trust it until a case report becomes a more experienced phenomenon. A case report is only one step above rumor in the level of evidence. And the fact that this one incident has gone 'round the world only shows the efficiency of the Internet.

ClickClickD'oh · February 14, 2013, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Very hard to argue with that.

Well, other than the fact that the firearm doesn't demonstrate any of the tell tale characteristics of a firearm destroyed by ammunition issues.

tipoc · February 14, 2013, 05:21 PM

The thread is making the rounds. One reason for the interest is that the guns have been receiving good reviews. They have developed in a few years a good reputation.

A catastrophic failure to a slide generates interest. The pic on page 6 of the original thread shows a clean break. No damage to the breech face.

I wish they had shown a picture of the underside of the slide.

The pics that begin this thread look more like the gun has been run over by a truck than a failure due to ammo.

tipoc

ny32182 · February 14, 2013, 05:29 PM

OP sure has a flair for the dramatic.

I held one, not shot one yet, and to me the ergos feel AWESOME. If they made a lefty or ambi model, I would have already bought one. There are a couple things I don't like, but nothing that couldn't be corrected relatively easily from what I could see.

Actually the one I held was being worked over by a local smith for competition. He had milled the slide to accept a real rear sight, among other things, but made the comment that the steel was the hardest he'd ever worked with on any gun. I don't know how or if that would figure into performance during a KB.

OilyPablo · February 14, 2013, 05:39 PM

Eye protection.

So the way it's written, this just didn't happen. The OP has one post here.

The pics on the linked site look like lousy metallurgy, but hard to tell.

I don't fire Chinese ammo.

ATLDave · February 14, 2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ny32182

He had milled the slide to accept a real rear sight, among other things, but made the comment that the steel was the hardest he'd ever worked with on any gun. I don't know how or if that would figure into performance during a KB.

Hard steel is often brittle. Soft steel bends, hard steel breaks.

OilyPablo · February 14, 2013, 05:49 PM

Tough steel, or tough alloy with a high enough tensile strength is what you need, not a super hard steel in a slide. I missed that comment, but backs my guess on poor metallurgy.

Trent · February 14, 2013, 05:49 PM

Could be a quality control issue with heat treating processes (e.g. 1903 springfield).

Or, a steel mill with bad quality control.

If the design is solid (architecturally) but the metal is failing, that'd be where I'd point the initial blame.

However, this is all still anecdotal, until there's a pattern, or laboratory testing, no real conclusions can be formed.

Wil Terry · February 14, 2013, 05:52 PM

Somehow I smell a rat here. There are lots of cover words, lots of claims, lots of this lotsa that, but He cannot figure out how to correctly put the magazine in the gun to display the KABOOM results......Hmmmmmmm......in over five decades of shooting, having worked for two different ammunition companies, and having blown guns skyhigh in testing I have NEVER seen one quite like this.

tarosean · February 14, 2013, 06:00 PM

Hang out long enough on the internet and you will see every single type of handgun kaboom'd...

Interesting sure. Enough to persuade me from buying one if I were in the market?? No

OilyPablo · February 14, 2013, 06:08 PM

Stuff happens.

Agree on the definition of a trend and we will go from there.

gamestalker · February 14, 2013, 06:22 PM

Although I've never experienced a cat failure, I have always taken certain safety steps in the event it should ever happen, proper eye protection is a must! Even decent shooting gloves are my preference in this respect, I like having 5 digits and each hand.

And if it was the result of factory ammo it only reinforces my reasoning in personally loading all the ammo I shoot. I've experienced some very unusual, and sometimes ill performing factory early on in my shooting days, including mis-fires, and a box of shotshells that were separating at the base, and stuff that wouldn't even chamber. And I actually started the reloading process based almost solely on those experiences.

But I am glad to hear he has fully recovered and I hope nothing like should ever happen to anyone. It could easily drive them away from the enjoyment of the shooting sports.

GS

ku4hx · February 14, 2013, 06:32 PM

Right, wrong or indifferent if this type post was made on a computer forum (or in the comments on a computer oriented blog) with no substantiating documentation, only personal say-so, it would be tagged as spreading "FUD": Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

For all I know the OP may be a truly upstanding member of the Pakistani shooting community, but he could also be an anti gun troll.

Sun Tzu warrior · February 14, 2013, 08:41 PM

From the OP's handle..... and the fact that he has made only one post??? Seems like a big question mark in my mind?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I'm not sure as to his what his intentions are, but it sure seems suspect to me! Just sayin' The slide almost looks DE-Milled to me. Further I have to agree with RC Model, I work on machines for a living. Every time a new type comes out I urge my coutomers to let "the other guy" do the Beta testing!

Certaindeaf · February 14, 2013, 08:50 PM

Safety glasses cost a dollar. Maybe start some new threads across the intermets with the username "Safetyglassescostadollar". knock on wood

C0untZer0 · February 14, 2013, 09:08 PM

It's not only his first post it's his only post.

wally · February 14, 2013, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Chinese ammo has blown up more than one gun in a variety of calibers.

From the admittedly poor quality photos, I see no evidence of anything having "blown up".

Looks like the slide simply broke into two pieces, as the early Beretta 92 military models sometimes did -- their "solution" after beefing up the side and QA/QC a bit, was to add a stud to the frame to keep the broken half from flying backwards.

Spymaster · February 14, 2013, 09:20 PM

Exactly...^^^

Certaindeaf · February 14, 2013, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C0untZer0

It's not only his first post it's his only post.

Yes, quite suspect. Probably just trying to drum up the biz for the/his linked site.

**9mmepiphany** · February 14, 2013, 09:49 PM

The reason I didn't close this thread at first blush, was because I thought it might bring up some informative discussion. If this devolves into circling the wagons and denial, there isn't much sense in it staying open

Bigkrackers · February 14, 2013, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Certaindeaf

Yes, quite suspect. Probably just trying to drum up the biz for the/his linked site.

Why do you think it is suspect? You realize that not only is he in a different time zone but in another country? I don't think anyone here can describe a day in the OP's life.

As for drumming up business to a gun forum in Pakistan, I don't think the OP would pick THR. No offense meant but, did anyone here know that you could even legally own a handgun in Pakistan? When it comes to guns, Americans are pretty isolated and liner in our perceptions of gun ownership in the rest of the world.

As to the pictures on the Pak site, it's pretty clear to me that its the metal and not the ammo. Have none of you seen a mount or bolt or rod break clean like that? I may have never witnessed a slide break like that but I have seen plenty of other industrial metals do that. It's usually the result of fatigue either from adverse environmental exposure or age or maxing out the tinsel strength or impurities in the metal.

Anyway, not trying to sound like some metallurgist because I'm not but I have some life experience and that break looks like some I have seen close up with other metal applications.

If it turns out to be a hoax then oh well. At least give the op the benefit of the doubt until we know more.

tipoc · February 14, 2013, 10:32 PM

The pictures of the slide in the link show a break. The slide was not cut in half or sawed, or milled. It broke. Why, we don't know. Folks can guess all they like. Perhaps bad heat treat of the slide.

There was no Ka-Boom.

There is no evidence that the op is a troll.

Still, better and clear pics of the gun from various angles would have helped.

tipoc

Bovice · February 14, 2013, 11:03 PM

Interestingly, the barrel seems intact and undamaged. The only damage I see is the broken slide.

Overpressured round? I don't think I'd hang my hat on that.

February 14, 2013, 05:29 PM	#31
ny32182 Member Join Date: October 17, 2003 Location: Clemson, SC Posts: 4,857	OP sure has a flair for the dramatic. I held one, not shot one yet, and to me the ergos feel AWESOME. If they made a lefty or ambi model, I would have already bought one. There are a couple things I don't like, but nothing that couldn't be corrected relatively easily from what I could see. Actually the one I held was being worked over by a local smith for competition. He had milled the slide to accept a real rear sight, among other things, but made the comment that the steel was the hardest he'd ever worked with on any gun. I don't know how or if that would figure into performance during a KB. __________________ You've been given the gift of freedom... don't turn your back on it. --Sandy Lyle

February 14, 2013, 05:39 PM	#32
OilyPablo Member Join Date: September 2, 2012 Location: WA State (NOT in Seattle) Posts: 1,127	Eye protection. So the way it's written, this just didn't happen. The OP has one post here. The pics on the linked site look like lousy metallurgy, but hard to tell. I don't fire Chinese ammo. __________________ It's simple: If you don't like guns, don't own one.

February 14, 2013, 05:49 PM	#34
OilyPablo Member Join Date: September 2, 2012 Location: WA State (NOT in Seattle) Posts: 1,127	Tough steel, or tough alloy with a high enough tensile strength is what you need, not a super hard steel in a slide. I missed that comment, but backs my guess on poor metallurgy. __________________ It's simple: If you don't like guns, don't own one.

February 14, 2013, 05:49 PM	#35
Trent Member Join Date: December 6, 2010 Posts: 4,723	Could be a quality control issue with heat treating processes (e.g. 1903 springfield). Or, a steel mill with bad quality control. If the design is solid (architecturally) but the metal is failing, that'd be where I'd point the initial blame. However, this is all still anecdotal, until there's a pattern, or laboratory testing, no real conclusions can be formed. __________________ Tyrant: 1. a sovereign or other ruler who uses power oppressively or unjustly. Example: http://www.whitehouse.gov/

February 14, 2013, 06:08 PM	#38
OilyPablo Member Join Date: September 2, 2012 Location: WA State (NOT in Seattle) Posts: 1,127	Stuff happens. Agree on the definition of a trend and we will go from there. __________________ It's simple: If you don't like guns, don't own one.

February 14, 2013, 05:18 PM	#28
Shuler13 Member Join Date: December 13, 2011 Location: Austin Posts: 226	I have one and will trust it until a case report becomes a more experienced phenomenon. A case report is only one step above rumor in the level of evidence. And the fact that this one incident has gone 'round the world only shows the efficiency of the Internet.

February 14, 2013, 05:21 PM	#30
tipoc Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Posts: 1,852	The thread is making the rounds. One reason for the interest is that the guns have been receiving good reviews. They have developed in a few years a good reputation. A catastrophic failure to a slide generates interest. The pic on page 6 of the original thread shows a clean break. No damage to the breech face. I wish they had shown a picture of the underside of the slide. The pics that begin this thread look more like the gun has been run over by a truck than a failure due to ammo. tipoc

February 14, 2013, 05:52 PM	#36
Wil Terry Member Join Date: December 26, 2002 Location: Black Hills, South Dakota, USA Posts: 785	Somehow I smell a rat here. There are lots of cover words, lots of claims, lots of this lotsa that, but He cannot figure out how to correctly put the magazine in the gun to display the KABOOM results......Hmmmmmmm......in over five decades of shooting, having worked for two different ammunition companies, and having blown guns skyhigh in testing I have NEVER seen one quite like this.

February 14, 2013, 06:00 PM	#37
tarosean Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: Madisonville, TX Posts: 2,160	Hang out long enough on the internet and you will see every single type of handgun kaboom'd... Interesting sure. Enough to persuade me from buying one if I were in the market?? No

February 14, 2013, 06:22 PM	#39
gamestalker Member Join Date: September 10, 2008 Location: SW Arizona Posts: 4,340	Although I've never experienced a cat failure, I have always taken certain safety steps in the event it should ever happen, proper eye protection is a must! Even decent shooting gloves are my preference in this respect, I like having 5 digits and each hand. And if it was the result of factory ammo it only reinforces my reasoning in personally loading all the ammo I shoot. I've experienced some very unusual, and sometimes ill performing factory early on in my shooting days, including mis-fires, and a box of shotshells that were separating at the base, and stuff that wouldn't even chamber. And I actually started the reloading process based almost solely on those experiences. But I am glad to hear he has fully recovered and I hope nothing like should ever happen to anyone. It could easily drive them away from the enjoyment of the shooting sports. GS

February 14, 2013, 06:32 PM	#40
ku4hx Member Join Date: November 8, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,265	Right, wrong or indifferent if this type post was made on a computer forum (or in the comments on a computer oriented blog) with no substantiating documentation, only personal say-so, it would be tagged as spreading "FUD": Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. For all I know the OP may be a truly upstanding member of the Pakistani shooting community, but he could also be an anti gun troll. __________________ "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.", old Chinese proverb.

February 14, 2013, 08:41 PM	#41
Sun Tzu warrior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 118	From the OP's handle..... and the fact that he has made only one post??? Seems like a big question mark in my mind?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I'm not sure as to his what his intentions are, but it sure seems suspect to me! Just sayin' The slide almost looks DE-Milled to me. Further I have to agree with RC Model, I work on machines for a living. Every time a new type comes out I urge my coutomers to let "the other guy" do the Beta testing!

February 14, 2013, 08:50 PM	#42
Certaindeaf Member Join Date: January 16, 2012 Location: Wet Oregon Posts: 4,935	Safety glasses cost a dollar. Maybe start some new threads across the intermets with the username "Safetyglassescostadollar". knock on wood __________________ Sent from my computer using my fingers.

February 14, 2013, 09:08 PM	#43
C0untZer0 Member Join Date: December 7, 2010 Location: Illinois Posts: 891	It's not only his first post it's his only post.

February 14, 2013, 09:20 PM	#45
Spymaster member Join Date: February 13, 2013 Posts: 78	Exactly...^^^

February 14, 2013, 09:49 PM	#47
9mmepiphany Moderator Join Date: December 27, 2002 Location: northern california Posts: 12,675	The reason I didn't close this thread at first blush, was because I thought it might bring up some informative discussion. If this devolves into circling the wagons and denial, there isn't much sense in it staying open __________________ Because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale Correct Grip DA Trigger Management How to Dryfire and Hit Stuff *Forum Rules* Choosing your first 1911 A 1911 for duty use What 1911 reliability means

February 14, 2013, 10:32 PM	#49
tipoc Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Posts: 1,852	The pictures of the slide in the link show a break. The slide was not cut in half or sawed, or milled. It broke. Why, we don't know. Folks can guess all they like. Perhaps bad heat treat of the slide. There was no Ka-Boom. There is no evidence that the op is a troll. Still, better and clear pics of the gun from various angles would have helped. tipoc

February 14, 2013, 11:03 PM	#50
Bovice Member Join Date: September 27, 2009 Posts: 1,354	Interestingly, the barrel seems intact and undamaged. The only damage I see is the broken slide. Overpressured round? I don't think I'd hang my hat on that.