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Old February 15, 2013, 02:25 PM   #51
Skylerbone
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From post #49:

Quote:
Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances.
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Old February 15, 2013, 02:52 PM   #52
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Yes I read that, however he had also stated words to the effect of IF you buy it knowing you were asked to "pick one up" etc. So my question is not if she sees it and wants to buy it for you, rather she CALLS you and asks you IF you would like to have it- probably the same but it's made me curious
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:09 PM   #53
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Quote:
Yes I read that, however he had also stated words to the effect of IF you buy it knowing you were asked to "pick one up" etc. So my question is not if she sees it and wants to buy it for you, rather she CALLS you and asks you IF you would like to have it- probably the same but it's made me curious
There are clearly some grey areas. But there's probably no practical need to scrutinize this quite that closely.

And in some ways the "follow the money" answer is pretty useful. If someone buys it for you with their money and gives it to you, with no compensation -- that's a gift.

If someone gives you $500 and tells you to go buy them a Glock, that's not a gift.

If your wife uses money from your joint checking account to buy you a gun...just don't worry about "if it is or if it ain't." That's not going to end up in court.
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Old February 15, 2013, 04:31 PM   #54
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Thanks!!!
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Old March 10, 2013, 09:25 PM   #55
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========================= This site needs a delete option ========

Last edited by -Xero-; March 11, 2013 at 05:41 PM.
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Old March 10, 2013, 09:52 PM   #56
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Quote:
I decided to give a rifle to a nephew who lives in another state. Technically, interstate transfer between private parties is not lawful. So it's not really "his" rifle. It's my rifle and I've loaned it to him in perpetuity.
Yikes. Please don't admit to things like this on public web sites (too late now, of course).

The law regarding this type of transfer involves who possesses the gun, not who bought it or whether it was "officially" sold or "officially" given or not.

To quote NavyLCDR on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyLCDR
There is also debate as to whether a person can accept a loan of a firearm from a person outside their own state of residence because there is no loaning exception in 18 USC 922 (a)(3):

Quote:
§ 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and

(C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
It would seem like if you, from out of state, come to my state, I can loan you a firearm in my state....but it seems like it would be illegal for you to accept that loaned firearm in your state.
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Old March 11, 2013, 02:43 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Xero-
Here, let's turn this into a hypothetical -- Your employer gives you $$$ for work performed. You use the money given to you by your employer to purchase a firearm. Is your employer buying the firearm?...
As you posit the question, the answer would appear to be "no." But as I'll outline in more detail, you really have no clue what you're talking about.

The law regarding straw purchases is discussed in detail in post 23. I suggest you review this thread completely and in detail until you understand it. In the meantime, please refrain from posting erroneous, unsupported information.

It's also evident that you don't understand the law. You should avoid attempting to provide advice on legal matters when you're not qualified to do so and when your misinformation, if followed, could put someone in serious legal jeopardy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Xero-
...Your friend gives you the cash to purchase the firearm he's lawfully entitled to own. You purchase the gun. Is the gun for you? YES, you're the purchaser. Is it intended as a purchase to be sold to someone else? Doesn't matter, you're still the purchaser. Reselling or transferring the gun at a later time is lawful...
Nope. See post 23. If you are buying the gun at an FFL with money given to you (or promised to you) by another for the purpose of transferring it to that person, in the eyes of the law you are not the actual purchaser. You are buying the gun on behalf of, as the agent or proxy for, that person.

If you were to then claim of the 4473 to be the actual purchaser, you would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(6).

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Xero-
..."Straw purchase" would be when you enter into the transfer as a "straw man" for someone else with the INTENT to conceal or otherwise fraudulently acquire the firearm for another buyer....
Wrong again. See post 23.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Xero-
...CURRENTLY no law prohibits transfer of firearms between private parties without a background check. Obie, Joe, and Dianne want to put a stop to that. This thread is part of the reason the "universal background check" system is not going to work...
Also wrong.

The laws in many States require no formalities in connection with a private transfer of a gun from one resident of the State to another resident of that State. But federal generally prohibits (with a couple of narrow exceptions) any transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another. Furthermore, a number of States require certain formalities, including background checks, in connection with intrastate transfers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Xero-
...I decided to give a rifle to a nephew who lives in another state. Technically, interstate transfer between private parties is not lawful. So it's not really "his" rifle. It's my rifle and I've loaned it to him in perpetuity...
Garbage.

Let's look at the applicable statutes:
  1. 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    Quote:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...
  2. And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    Quote:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and

    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
    ..

You may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)) a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt. But if you were to take the gun back to your home State with you, you would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(3), which has no "loan" exception, thus becoming eligible for five years in federal prison and a lifetime loss of gun rights. Since there is no loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a load of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Xero-
...Texas used to have a law (1967) prohibiting sales of handguns. The dealer would provide you a handgun with a "99 year lease." I do believe there was a clause that after 99 yrs the item becomes "community property" of the person possessing the gun. ...
Balderdash!
  1. Let's see some good evidence such as the proper citation to the law.

  2. Your "community property" statement is preposterous. Community property refers to property within a marriage (and only in a State using the community property system for marital property -- like Texas).
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Old July 10, 2013, 09:01 PM   #58
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I'm glad I read this post. I happen to live in NY where Cuomo decided that only criminals own firearms. Thanks to his blinding genius the Saiga 12 shotgun is banned here unless already owned or whatever.
I happen to be considered a LEO (NYC Correction Dept.) and having some exemptions on owning what they call an "assault weapon", was considering trying to obtain said firearm from another state by buying it from a family member and having it shipped (if possible) to an FFL here. But I see that more than likely that would be considered illegal seeing as no one in my family owns one and they sure as hell wouldn't "gift" it to me unless they were going to get their money back.

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Old July 16, 2013, 12:25 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadclown View Post
I'm glad I read this post. I happen to live in NY where Cuomo decided that only criminals own firearms. Thanks to his blinding genius the Saiga 12 shotgun is banned here unless already owned or whatever.
I happen to be considered a LEO (NYC Correction Dept.) and having some exemptions on owning what they call an "assault weapon", was considering trying to obtain said firearm from another state by buying it from a family member and having it shipped (if possible) to an FFL here. But I see that more than likely that would be considered illegal seeing as no one in my family owns one and they sure as hell wouldn't "gift" it to me unless they were going to get their money back.
Wow, did you bring up an interesting twist/grey area. I can't get a certain firearm in my location (even though it is completely legal for me to own), so someone buys it for me in their area, but they don't transfer the gun to me directly, they ship it to an FFL for transfer to me. So, technically, by the letter of the law, they performed a straw purchase, and yet, I ended up with the gun, with the NICS check, with a form 4473 completed and signed by me, and the transfer approved. Interesting....
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Old July 16, 2013, 12:57 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyLCDR
...you bring up an interesting twist/grey area. I can't get a certain firearm in my location (even though it is completely legal for me to own), so someone buys it for me in their area, but they don't transfer the gun to me directly, they ship it to an FFL for transfer to me. So, technically, by the letter of the law, they performed a straw purchase, and yet, I ended up with the gun, with the NICS check, with a form 4473 completed and signed by me, and the transfer approved. Interesting....
It's not so much a gray area as it is, perhaps, a bizarre result.

The actual federal crime is violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), making a false statement on the 4473 -- specifically a false statement as to the actual purchaser is. So if A arranges with B for B to buy a gun on his (A's) behalf, B is legally not the actual buyer. Rather B is buying the gun on behalf of A, as A's agent or proxy. So if B claims of the 4473 to be the actual purchaser, he has made a false statement, in violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), on the 4473 (and if he doesn't, he won't get the gun).

The federal crime is committed when B makes the false statement. That's not necessarily cured when A receives the gun on another 4473. It has been suggested that B could perhaps avoid criminal responsibility for the false statement because the subsequent transfer on a 4473 makes that false statement immaterial. That's an interesting theory, but I'm unaware that it has every been supported by a federal court. Testing the theory in court would be an expensive and high risk proposition.
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Old July 16, 2013, 01:01 PM   #61
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There is a fairly common perception on gun boards that if you pass the gun through a dealer it renders moot whatever arrangements or transactions transpired before. Sort of "gun laundering" if you will. Frank's suggestion here is that this is not necessarily so.
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Old July 16, 2013, 01:32 PM   #62
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I ran into a strange issue (well not so much strange now looking at the laws posted). Was with the wife in a gun store looking at something (it was years ago, I think it was a Kel-tec SU16). I decided I wanted it. Looked for my voter ID and noticed I didn't have it on me, outside of my license that's all I would have had for the second form of ID. So I told the guy that my wife would be the one filling out the form as she had all the proper ID on her.....well he flew into this big rant about straw purchases and of course refused the sale.

I was thinking in my head, our money is in the same account, technically everything I own is half hers anyway so technically she is buying it for herself....bah, all these laws that only complicate things for law abiding citizens.
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Old July 16, 2013, 01:37 PM   #63
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Ironically, if she said, "I'm buying this gun as a gift for my husband here..." the clerk would have had no real reason to refuse. That's perfectly legal.

But no, saying "I'm going to buy this gun...no, wait, she's going to buy this gun for me," isn't going to fly. Some clerks will see a married couple sorting out their joint finances and turn a blind eye, but there's a risk for them in that the law is pretty specific that they shouldn't do that.
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Old July 16, 2013, 03:05 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911
...Some clerks will see a married couple sorting out their joint finances and turn a blind eye, but there's a risk for them in that the law is pretty specific that they shouldn't do that.
We can't expect an FFL to do something which he thinks might put his license/livelihood on the line.
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Old July 17, 2013, 01:38 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911 View Post
Ironically, if she said, "I'm buying this gun as a gift for my husband here..." the clerk would have had no real reason to refuse. That's perfectly legal.

But no, saying "I'm going to buy this gun...no, wait, she's going to buy this gun for me," isn't going to fly. Some clerks will see a married couple sorting out their joint finances and turn a blind eye, but there's a risk for them in that the law is pretty specific that they shouldn't do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin View Post
We can't expect an FFL to do something which he thinks might put his license/livelihood on the line.
And, we also have every opportunity to go to a dealer who isn't afraid to engage in a legal firearms transaction. For example - I get military orders to state A and my wife lives in state A with me. For the purposes of firearms transactions both my wife and I are residents of state A. I can prove residency to the FFL via my military orders and military ID card, but my wife cannot because all she has is her driver's license from our home of record state (state B). State A law allows her to keep her state B driver's license.

On more than one occasion we have gone into different retail stores and she has picked out a handgun that she likes by handling the different handguns and picking the one she wants. I have purchased the handgun right there on the spot as a gift to her. I signed the form 4473, NICS check on me, personal check from our joint checking account signed by me, she walks out of the gun store with the gun in a case in her possession. All perfectly legal.

However, I would not begrudge an FFL for refusing that transaction even though it is perfectly legal. I would just walk down the street and hope I could get the same price at a dealer that doesn't have any qualms about it.

At least in my family it is fairly common for us to pick out our own Christmas, birthday or just "I love you" gifts. "I want to buy you a computer for your birthday, but I want you to have the one that you want, so you tell me which one you want."

I know this is not the same scenario presented in post #58 because my wife never paid me for the gun I bought for her as a gift.
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Old July 26, 2013, 09:17 PM   #66
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Here's a recent prosecution for it:
http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/poli...26a9de0bb5b406
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Old October 15, 2013, 02:46 PM   #67
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The Supreme Court has taken a case dealing with a straw purchase. It's under discussion in this thread.
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Old December 4, 2013, 08:49 PM   #68
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A law enforcement officer buys 2 glock 40's. One for his Dad and the other for his brother. Both are legal to own, but wanted to take advantage of glock's blue box discounts. Money changes hands and transfer of ownership from the leo to the Dad and brother is completed.

The leo lied on the 4473. Does that make him a felon?
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Old December 4, 2013, 09:16 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 351 WINCHESTER
...The leo lied on the 4473. Does that make him a felon?
As of this moment the answer would be "yes", definitely in States in the Fourth, Sixth and Eleventh Circuits, and possibly in others as well, except those in the Fifth Circuit.

But we'll know for sure nationwide most likely by the end of this year. See post 67.
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Old December 4, 2013, 09:55 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Frank Ettin View Post
As of this moment the answer would be "yes".
Not until he is convicted. Until he is convicted he is just someone who has allegedly committed a felony.
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Old December 4, 2013, 10:09 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyLCDR
Not until he is convicted. Until he is convicted he is just someone who has allegedly committed a felony.
351 WINCHESTER posited a hypothetical. The acts described in the hypothetical constitute the elements of a felony under federal law (at least in the Fourth, Sixth and Eleventh Circuits).
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Old December 4, 2013, 11:43 PM   #72
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This straw purchase actually happened. I told my friend that his son (leo) could get in trouble and loose his job for lying on the 4473. He told me that his son could legally purchase and transfer ownership of the pistols, but since money was given to the leo by the Dad and brother the intent to circumvent the law was quite evident imho.

Now, If I bought a gun and gave it to my son that would be ok.
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Old January 22, 2014, 06:50 PM   #73
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Is this situation legal? And no I did not do this and would never do so. It is hypothetical question. A son-in-law talks his father in law into purchasing a handgun for him and the paperwork shows that the son in law is the purchaser the father in law just paid for it. The son in law brings how the gun shoots 1 Mag through the weapon then proceeded to place an ad online the same day to sell the gun. He finds a buyer a few days later online and meets him late at night makes the transfer face to face. Is this legal to do and if not what laws were broken?
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Old January 22, 2014, 07:33 PM   #74
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Yes, that is legal, though it appears you've got two issues tied up in one question.

A) It is legal for the son-in-law to buy that gun. That his F-I-L gave him the money really isn't the question. Now, it could become the question, as the dealer could easily misconstrue the situation and deny the sale. The "who's money" question gets sketchy because it could look like the FIL is the real buyer and the SIL is purchasing it FOR the FIL. Best not to get into who's money it is while standing there at the dealer's counter as that just muddles the matter.

SO...what should really happen in that case is the FIL buys the gun and fills out the paperwork. HE is the buyer. He then GIVES the gun outright to his SIL. That's perfectly legal. Buying a firearm yourself, with the purpose of giving it as a gift is perfectly lawful.

Fronting the money for someone else to buy a gun FOR YOU is where this runs afoul of the law.

B) So he sold it again quickly? Not a problem. He was still the purchaser. The gun was still FOR HIM. He shot it and didn't like it? He didn't shoot it but decided he didn't want it? He had a bad dream about guns and decided to sell it the next morning? Whatever. That's all fine and legal.

Now, do that 10 times and come to the attention of the BATFE, and you're likely to be answering questions about "dealing in firearms without a license" -- but the transactions as described in this one scenario are lawful.
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Old January 22, 2014, 07:45 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911 View Post
Yes, that is legal, though it appears you've got two issues tied up in one question.

A) It is legal for the son-in-law to buy that gun. That his F-I-L gave him the money really isn't the question. Now, it could become the question, as the dealer could easily misconstrue the situation and deny the sale. The "who's money" question gets sketchy because it could look like the FIL is the real buyer and the SIL is purchasing it FOR the FIL. Best not to get into who's money it is while standing there at the dealer's counter as that just muddles the matter.

SO...what should really happen in that case is the FIL buys the gun and fills out the paperwork. HE is the buyer. He then GIVES the gun outright to his SIL. That's perfectly legal. Buying a firearm yourself, with the purpose of giving it as a gift is perfectly lawful.

Fronting the money for someone else to buy a gun FOR YOU is where this runs afoul of the law.

B) So he sold it again quickly? Not a problem. He was still the purchaser. The gun was still FOR HIM. He shot it and didn't like it? He didn't shoot it but decided he didn't want it? He had a bad dream about guns and decided to sell it the next morning? Whatever. That's all fine and legal.

Now, do that 10 times and come to the attention of the BATFE, and you're likely to be answering questions about "dealing in firearms without a license" -- but the transactions as described in this one scenario are lawful.
Thanks Sam.
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