Is 6 Shots Really Enough?

[BossHogg]

I have my 5 shot J-frame in my pocket most of the time, if I feel under gunned I move up to my hi-cap 6+1 Glock 36 45acp.

[JRH6856]

Originally Posted by Godsgunman

Also letting the threat within 3' (basically arms reach) in the first place generally shows a huge lack of situational awareness and you aren't drawing your gun in time before you are sucker punched from that distance.

Agreed. I wasn't describing the ideal situation, just what the FBI seemed to find was the most common. 3 feet is too close. 3 yards is too close. 7 yards (21') is probably the minimum threat distance for a reasonably reliable defense. But in some situations, it might be impossible to identify a threat soon enough.

[Youngster]

A New York reload was two .38s, one in each back pocket.

Really it was the whole concept of "reloading" by presenting another loaded handgun, in Cirillo's case he carried two 4 inch S&W Model 10s in duty holsters, plus a Colt Cobra snub and a PPK.

His frequent partner Bill Allard OTOH carried a 1911, a Model 10 and possible others.

Anyway, thumbing through his "Tales of the Stakeout Squad" again, his first gunfight with the squad included an instance where he'd shot a perp 3 times in the head but it was found that the first two had glanced off, suggesting that even with excellent markmanship, only 6 shots may be cutting it a little close in some situations.

[Warp]

I think the "rule of 3's average" is 3 rounds, 3 seconds, 3 yards...not feet.

But the point is the same. On average a defensive firearm use by a private citizen, esp a handgun in 'public', is a very quick, close range affair with not many shots fired.

But there certainly are outliers, and there certainly are legitimate reasons to want more than 6 rounds.

It is up to each individual to decide on their own personal course of actions, and decide for themselves what they are comfortable with and confident in.

[10 Spot Terminator]

6 shots are plenty unless there are 7 total idiots .

If you have a revolver get your self a couple of speed loaders and practice with them,,,, A LOT ! You can do this with dummy rounds for safety.

If you watch the Pistolero champions who use revolvers in combat courses you will see how amazingly fast they have become at reloading. You can too .

If you have to drop a cylinder of empties during a gunfight dont just let them hit the ground and signal you are empty. The trick is to surprise the bad guys when they move out of cover THINKING you are empty. Dont take time to put empty loaders and brass in your pocket. Pick them up later.

To maximize the potential of those 5, 6, or 7 shots in a revolver get a set of Crimson Trace laser grips. These allow you to fire from cover in ways you never before thought possible without the risk of exsposing too much of yourself. Let THEM become a target.

There is NO 2ND PLACE in a gunfight .

10 Spot

[788Ham]

Worrying about which to "carry"? Learning to shoot the one you're carrying is the important thing, being able to hit what the barrel points at is the main thing. Carrying is the easy part, make hitting what you're shooting at the next easiest thing !

[tomrkba]

The reason point shooting is so important is that it's fast! If you're inside seven yards, speed is essential, especially if you're behind on initiative. You can point shoot and score solid torso hits.

Your defenses may include body armor, but likely all you'll have is movement with the possibility of cover or concealment. If the bad guy is close to you, then movement becomes very important for avoiding incoming attacks. Keep in mind that the gun may not be the correct answer to the current situation; you may need to use your fists to create enough time and/or distance to draw a weapon.

It's very important to recognize that bad guys get a say in the outcome. They'll move and shoot. You should practice with Airsoft by shooting at moving targets while moving in various directions. Keep each practice iteration short with just a few shots and only load as many pellets as your gun holds. Lateral movement against the bad guy's gun side elbow provides you with maximum advantage. Practice shooting using primary and secondary hands moving in any direction. It'll take awhile to get accurate like this, but it's very possible.

Is six shots enough? Six rounds from either a revolver or semi-automatic pistol goes very, very quickly. You will be surprised given how many missed shots you'll make in the time of the shot string. This is why Bill Jordan liked "stand and deliver" (see No Second Place Winner): it was easier to hit. It worked for him, but I think it's better to practice a wider variety of skills.

Extra ammunition is essential in my mind, if only to reload the gun while waiting for the police. You never know if the bad guy's friends are going to arrive and you may need to use the gun again. Also, the gun may suffer from some sort of feed malfunction, bad magazine, etc. Reloading is a good way to get the gun back into action quickly.

[Big Dog Dad]

If you understand the basic concept of: Eyeball, rear sight, front sight, perp all in line, you will have no problem. If you want to look "cool" with the sights twisted towards the ground in "gansta" style, then spray and pray, followed by DIE. At the sight of a good 5-shot S&W, most (99.9%) of these low-lifes will turn and run. If not, two to center mass followed by one to the head and you've still got two shots left. Old-fart wisdom!

-=BDD=-

[Mp7]

a MP40 and a couple of stick-handgrenades, if u wanna play safe.

A FG42 in a back-scabbard works too.

[tomrkba]

If you understand the basic concept of: Eyeball, rear sight, front sight, perp all in line, you will have no problem. If you want to look "cool" with the sights twisted towards the ground in "gansta" style, then spray and pray, followed by DIE.

Point shooting has nothing to do with that silly sideways shooting technique shown in the movies. If one takes it seriously and figures it out, it works well. The trick is to apply it only in the correct situation. Point shooting is essential for scoring hits while moving quickly (the silly "crab walk" or "crab sidestep" is too slow). My general rule of thumb is to hold the gun higher as the distance increases. If certainty is in doubt, use the sights. For me, that means past 12-15 yards (depending upon the gun), I'll be using aimed fire only. Practice point shooting while moving enough to know when you can and cannot make a shot with certainty. This may mean you don't take a shot until the bad guy stops moving; you'll have to make the call based upon your confidence, what he's doing, cover/concealment, and who is in the background.

At the sight of a good 5-shot S&W, most (99.9%) of these low-lifes will turn and run.

The operative word here is "most". What if the criminal moving up on you does not see the gun? Gang members are returning from overseas with combat experience (and some have high end special operations experience) and they're training their buddies. Don't count upon anything. There was an essay about training to fight "Todd" which described training to fight a very strong trained man. It's worst case; we all hope for something more in our favor.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by 10 Spot Terminator

If you have to drop a cylinder of empties during a gunfight dont just let them hit the ground and signal you are empty. The trick is to surprise the bad guys when they move out of cover THINKING you are empty.

notsureifserious

[tomrkba]

Originally Posted by 10 Spot Terminator
If you have to drop a cylinder of empties during a gunfight dont just let them hit the ground and signal you are empty. The trick is to surprise the bad guys when they move out of cover THINKING you are empty.

notsureifserious

He likely is, despite it being about as "good" as Vice President Joe Biden's advice to "shoot through the door".

[David E]

Originally Posted by 10 Spot Terminator

If you have to drop a cylinder of empties during a gunfight dont just let them hit the ground and signal you are empty. The trick is to surprise the bad guys when they move out of cover THINKING you are empty.

Hey, I saw that movie, too. James Coburn thought Charleton Heston was empty, but it was just a clever ploy!

[lowercase]

notsureifserious

That reply cracked me up.

[Texshooter]

Hard for me to say.

6 of .357 vs 16 9mm? Or 8 .45?

Thankfully I have never had to find out and will to the best of my ability avoid having to find out.

Not talking about stats here, but would love to see some actual confrontation reports, certified, as to how many shots were fired, and needed, to end a good guys run in with danger.

[Texshooter]

In response to Black Knight post #106, I can see that point.

Just observe people at a firing range. How many of the wheelie shooters are actually practicing vs. the high cap shooters just, well, shooting at will with what seems like no plan of practice.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by Texshooter

In response to Black Knight post #106, I can see that point.

Just observe people at a firing range. How many of the wheelie shooters are actually practicing vs. the high cap shooters just, well, shooting at will with what seems like no plan of practice.

Seems to be about the same to me.

[tomrkba]

I do not see that at all. What I see is a higher proportion of novice shooters unable to figure out what they're doing wrong. I see "tea cupping", fingers on the front of trigger guards, recoil anticipation, and so forth. Lack of trigger control is the most common mistake and is usually combined with one or two others. Semi-autos are far more popular and there will be a correspondingly larger group of novices. They could all use some double action revolver trigger time to help clean up their trigger control. This is the primary purpose of my revolvers, by the way.

[David E]

If you want to stretch a box of 50, shoot them in a revolver.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by David E

If you want to stretch a box of 50, shoot them in a revolver.

Yes, the generally-slower reloads will tend to slow you down. Some semi autos now come with enough magazines to hold the entire 50 round box all at once. If you load all of them up before you start shooting, you can finish before you really realize what just happened

[Certaindeaf]

Originally Posted by David E

If you want to stretch a box of 50, shoot them in a revolver.

I remember like a hundred years ago a semi-auto .22 handgun, model 41? it doesn't matter, was pitted against an H&R top break 999 revolver (not that the top-break was the deal breaker, it was just pitted against the auto) and the 999 won every time getting through 50 faster and of course more.

[JRH6856]

Originally Posted by Certaindeaf

I remember like a hundred years ago a semi-auto .22 handgun, model 41? it doesn't matter, was pitted against an H&R top break 999 revolver (not that the top-break was the deal breaker, it was just pitted against the auto) and the 999 won every time getting through 50 faster and of course more.

I'm guessing the semi had no spare mags so the one mag had to be reloaded each time.

[smle41]

On the subject that Tex and Warp mention, I have to confirm from my personal experience and observations that revolver shooters do often seem to exhibit more care. And I am firmly convinced that BDD apprehends the most likely scenario that we might face.
I cannot recall all the details, I assume someone more savvy than I can find the original post/thread, regarding "street thugs and you", and confirming the old saw, that the single most important rule of the (potential) gun fight is to have a gun. And, the willingness and mentality to use it.
Please do not misunderstand that I am against a person wishing to use what they wish....
In answer to the question posed about actual confrontations, against single or numerous ne'er-do-wells, it seems that, by far, the actual round usage is 0 (with any number from 2 to a dozen attackers), though I can think of three instances where the ammunition expenditure was 1 (even against multiple criminals, once the shooting started, they were trying to outrun the bullet in their haste to leave) and once when it was 8 ( all fired into one attacker at point blank range while the other gang members fled, their resolve to mug being in inverse ratio to the victim's willingness to fight back).
I am not by any means ruling out the possibility of facing numerous determined foes, but one must first realize that the majority of criminals are not determined people, and that if a person is facing such an uncommon threat, one must the fact that one's prospects may be grim indeed, such that no pistol made can substantively affect in and of itself. Fortunately, such foes, who really are willing to die for your wallet, are statistically non-existent as opposed to those who run away to rape another day.
Have a gun, know how to use it, be willing and prepared to use it.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by smle41

On the subject that Tex and Warp mention, I have to confirm from my personal experience and observations that revolver shooters do often seem to exhibit more care. And I am firmly convinced that BDD apprehends the most likely scenario that we might face.
I cannot recall all the details, I assume someone more savvy than I can find the original post/thread, regarding "street thugs and you", and confirming the old saw, that the single most important rule of the (potential) gun fight is to have a gun. And, the willingness and mentality to use it.
Please do not misunderstand that I am against a person wishing to use what they wish....
In answer to the question posed about actual confrontations, against single or numerous ne'er-do-wells, it seems that, by far, the actual round usage is 0 (with any number from 2 to a dozen attackers), though I can think of three instances where the ammunition expenditure was 1 (even against multiple criminals, once the shooting started, they were trying to outrun the bullet in their haste to leave) and once when it was 8 ( all fired into one attacker at point blank range while the other gang members fled, their resolve to mug being in inverse ratio to the victim's willingness to fight back).
I am not by any means ruling out the possibility of facing numerous determined foes, but one must first realize that the majority of criminals are not determined people, and that if a person is facing such an uncommon threat, one must the fact that one's prospects may be grim indeed, such that no pistol made can substantively affect in and of itself. Fortunately, such foes, who really are willing to die for your wallet, are statistically non-existent as opposed to those who run away to rape another day.
Have a gun, know how to use it, be willing and prepared to use it.

That's a good post, but I don't personally care for the mentality/thought process behind the part in bold.

Don't assume that your wallet/money/whatever material possessions are all they are after, and all they want. That assumption could get your executed, or worse.

[smle41]

Oh, yes, and concur with AFDavis above, as well...
One ought not to assume that all the rodent(s) want is the TV, and I did not mean to imply that one ought to assume such, I apologize for any mis-expression . What I mean to express is that those who are willing to die are outnumbered by those who are unwilling to die. Almost all, conversely, are willing to harm and or murder in the "normal course of business". They are, largely, looking for a victim, not a fight...
And thank you for the compliment