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Old April 12, 2013, 05:39 AM   #26
TAKtical
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The days of $300-$400 AK's of any kind are behind us. Might as well just come to terms with that. $599? Maybe. But unless the entire US stops buying AK's for 6 months to a year, we will never see those $300-$400 prices again. Its been over a year since you were able to get something of quality for that price. I bought a Draco for my birthday last year in february and the cheapest ones available "new" were $499.
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Old April 13, 2013, 01:12 AM   #27
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What's that white stuff near and on the hinge of your side folder? Lube?
It really does help if you read posts, and pay attention to the words in them. I clearly stated the pictured gun was not mine. That said, I think what you are talking about is a ray of light.

Quote:
The barrel is 12.25" so you still get a good velocity for the 7.62 round, and accuracy should be about the same with a 16" AK given some trigger time.
As to draco barrel legnth see http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...&f=98&t=135350


Quote:
Additionally if you wanted to suppress, I would personally go with a 300Blackout AR15 instead because parts are now coming back in stock and down in price.
Additionally, they suppress MUCH better, are more accurate, quality mags are cheaper, and provide the many other advantages of the AR platform. Down side is there is not cheap steel case (which should be the case again at some point for the 7.62x39).

Quote:
The days of $300-$400 AK's of any kind are behind us. Might as well just come to terms with that. $599? Maybe.
My guess is that barring more panic inducing events regular 16" AKs will come back down in price a lot. That's what happened during the last panic. Saigas went back to $299 and AMD 65s were like $450 or so. The M10s, I don't recall the exact price but they were reasonable. I wouldn't be feeling the need to buy $700+ Wasr 10s and the like right now. Gun prices are slowly falling online and in my local shops and classifieds.
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Old April 13, 2013, 04:13 AM   #28
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Old April 13, 2013, 02:23 PM   #29
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Additionally, they suppress MUCH better, are more accurate, quality mags are cheaper, and provide the many other advantages of the AR platform. Down side is there is not cheap steel case (which should be the case again at some point for the 7.62x39).
A suppressed SBR really isn't on my list, as it's the overall length I'm focused on. I'm interested in 7.62x39 due to the size and power of the round in a short barreled weapon.

I suppose I could look for a 7.62x39 AR, but between the buffer tube making a folding stock a bit of a nightmare (want to fire the gun with the stock folded? HAH!) and the fact that the entire platform seems to be designed around a 5.56 sized round, it seems far more trouble than its worth.

Don't get me wrong, the AR is a great platform, but in a 7.62x39 SBR type role, it doesn't appear to be the best choice.
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Old April 13, 2013, 04:16 PM   #30
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I'm interested in 7.62x39 due to the size and power of the round in a short barreled weapon.

I suppose I could look for a 7.62x39 AR,
7.62x39 and 300 BLK are very similar rounds in terms of ballistics. Much of what was written above about performance from a short barrel is the same for the 300 BLK. A 300 BLK is after all a 7.62x35. If it were me, and I was considering AR style guns I would get a 300 BLK over a 7.62x39. The 300 BLK is better suited for use in an AR. There are lots of good 8" 300 BLK uppers. There is no real good way around the buffer tube though. Even if you could do something with a stock like the ones on the HK416C (pictured below) or ACC Honey Badger its still not as short as a folder. Personally I find an 8" 300 BLK SBR to be an overall better/more versatile package than a 7" mini draco SBR. It might not be better for a narrower set of requirements/priorities.

Also if you are open to an AR platform and power is a big priority the big bore ARs (458 socom etc) also perform rather well out of 8" barrels. While they are not long range guns (and neither is a 7" AK) they are pretty big hammers within their practical ranges.



If going as short as you can possibly get when everything is folded/collapsed/etc is you first priority it will be tough to get shorter than 7" mini draco. Most mini draco SBRs, IIRC, tend to be about 17" or so with the stock folded (the exact length obviously depends on the exact folder used) and around 25" with it extended. Depending on the muzzle device used you can add a couple inches as well. My experience is the mini needs a pretty good flash hider if you intend to fire it more than once in the dark. In my testing, even with an A2 birdcage style hider, the mini gave off a seriously blinding fireball when fired at night. The same hider made regular draco manageable. I'd like to try a vortex on a mini but haven't had a chance. It would add more length.

Depending on your exact uses, something like a Kel Tec sub 2000 might be of interest. It is really short when folded. Folded the sub 2K is 16" long. It is 29.5 when it is open. It has some drawbacks It of course has KT build quality, cannot fire when folded, and is chambered only in 9x19 and 40 S&W. That said a 9x19 based on my experience picks up speed in a 16" barrel. With a hotter load it can push a 124 grain HP to right around 1500 FPS. Perhaps one could get more if they used hotter loads still or something like Winchester 127 grain +p+ loads. I've never tried to really hot rod it and see. I've seen people report 1650 with 135 grain 40S&W out of the sub 2K. That isn't to far off the muzzle velocity of a 123 grain bullet getting the 1800-1900 FPS that a lot of people report. Now again certain uses might require us to look harder at ballistic coefficients, bullet construction, etc. Velocity and energy numbers only tell part of the story. What are the realistic distances to be shot and what is to be shot at those distances?

The Sub 2000 has some notable advantages. It is cheap. It takes mags for various popular pistols. MY preference is the glock versions. This allows use of 33 round mags and 50 round drums (for 9x19 models). Generally ammo has been cheaper. It isn't an SBR, so no stamp or other requirements that go along with an SBR.

One other non-AK gun worth looking at might be a Rob arms XCR mini. It is 18" OAL when folded and (at least in theory) can be had in 5.56, 7.62x39, or 6.8 SPC. Why no 300 BLK? I don't know. The 6.8 SPC does well from that barrel length though. There is much that could be said about the XCR but its not worth mentioning unless it is something that is even in the running to begin with.
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Old April 13, 2013, 04:49 PM   #31
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That Robinson XCR-L Micro is a sexy beast!



Looks like it runs around $1,500ish though, plus tax stamp. Bit more than I want to spend right now.

The Sub 2000 is pretty nice as well, pity that it only comes in pistol caliber rounds

At this point, I think I'll just wait around for someone to sell a mini Draco at a reasonable price.
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Old April 13, 2013, 08:11 PM   #32
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The Sub 2000 is pretty nice as well, pity that it only comes in pistol caliber rounds
Depending on your intended use that may not be as much of a disadvantage vis-a-vis something like a min draco as it seems. Also depending on intended use the Sub 2K may not be a robust enough design to consider.

Quote:
Looks like it runs around $1,500ish though, plus tax stamp. Bit more than I want to spend right now.
A mini draco is probably not going to be found for less that $800. I'm not sure what stock set up you had in mind but something like a really basic ACE/stormwerkz hinge and stock will run about $130. Adding a front hand guard like the Midwest industries ones for the mini runs about the same. Then if you add a means to mount a RDS of some sort you might spend another $90-160 or so. You'll certainly want some sort of muzzle device on that mini. If you get a cheap A2 thats another $10 (as I said earlier though its not that effective on the mini and you may be looking at approximately $90). Also add the expense of 922r parts, and yes despite having opining to the contrary in the past BATF seems to be of the opinion these days that an SBR needs to be compliant. This very likely means adding a US made fire control group to reduce your parts count by three. Something like a G2 FCG is about $35.

So if you can find a mini for $800. You can very easily spend another $365-545, not counting the tax stamp, to get it set up in with similar features (flash hider, railed handguard, means to mount RDS, folding stock) as that XCR. Obviously a lot depends on what exact parts you want to use. You could probably spend a bit less than my low end and certainly could spend more than $545. In sum, the price difference when you are all said and done might not be very different at all. You could easily be $1200-$1500 into a mini draco SBR pre stamp.
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Old April 13, 2013, 08:14 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Mark-Smith View Post
That Robinson XCR-L Micro is a sexy beast!



Looks like it runs around $1,500ish though, plus tax stamp. Bit more than I want to spend right now.

The Sub 2000 is pretty nice as well, pity that it only comes in pistol caliber rounds

At this point, I think I'll just wait around for someone to sell a mini Draco at a reasonable price.
Pistol carbines have their place.

I've not had good luck with the KelTec, but I like the mags they can take.

Have you hit the old standbys, like Armslist and Gunbroker? J&G Sales?
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Old April 13, 2013, 10:43 PM   #34
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In sum, the price difference when you are all said and done might not be very different at all. You could easily be $1200-$1500 into a mini draco SBR pre stamp.
Possibly. But that's after adding quite a bit to it. With something like the Robinson XCR-L Micro, you have a gun that's by all accounts, very picky with ammo and starts at $1,500, not counting furniture, RDS or anything else. With an AR based SBR, you can't get anything as short as a Draco, or with the ability to fire with a folded stock.

Plus, a mini Draco fits comfortably in my messenger bag. Anything longer really doesn't (and messenger bags bigger than mine start to look like hipster capes). I don't plan on using it as truck gun only, or a home weapon only. A pistol is good, but a rifle is better, and a SBR is the closest you can get to carrying one concealed without looking out of place. That and I don't imagine using it anywhere at over 100 yards, so minute of bad guy accuracy is plenty.

I've been keeping an eye on completed auctions for mini Draco's on Gun Broker and hopefully once the average final price goes down, it won't be too painful to buy one.
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Old April 16, 2013, 04:15 PM   #35
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Possibly. But that's after adding quite a bit to it.
True, but and this was my point, if you are going to have an SBR period you are going to have to add some of what I listed. If you want one that is very useful you will have to add some of what I listed. Lastly if you want capabilities you stated were important to you, such as adding a RDS, you will have to add some of it. In other words, to get an SBR with a RDS you need to add most of that stuff so you should account for it when comparing prices.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from anything or push you one way or another. In fact I think the mini draco makes a very cool SBR. Just trying to help you accurately compare the costs of various options.

Also, given your statements about pistol versus rifle rounds I wanted to try and help you understand the that the difference given some of the platforms being discussed, and particularly within 100 yards, is not nearly what you might imagine.

Quote:
I've been keeping an eye on completed auctions for mini Draco's on Gun Broker and hopefully once the average final price goes down, it won't be too painful to buy one.
What have mini dracos been going for lately if you don't mind my asking? I've had a hard time even seeing any for sale places.
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Old September 27, 2014, 04:55 PM   #36
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Putting a stock on a Draco is not an "SBR"

I have seen so many posts with people talking about turning there Draco Ak "PISTOL" into an SBR. There is no need to file a form 1 when adding a stock because the Draco is by definition a pistol. A form one is for the modification of a Rifle into a SBR. short barreled rifle is defined in the US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921. as follows...
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(8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

Ok, in line one you see it means "a rifle". This is the key because the draco is in fact by definition a pistol. It is a modified Pistol not a modified Rifle. Its is completely legal to add a stock to a pistol. People add conversion kits to glocks and other pistols all the time with kits readily available online. Im sure they will not turn down a form one and 200 dollar revenue on a stamp but I just don't think it is necessary.

Now, I am by no means a lawyer or have a title by which you should take my word but Id love to be proven wrong on this.
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Old September 27, 2014, 05:14 PM   #37
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Goodness, talk about resurrecting threads!
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Old September 27, 2014, 05:49 PM   #38
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I have seen so many posts with people talking about turning there Draco Ak "PISTOL" into an SBR. There is no need to file a form 1 when adding a stock because the Draco is by definition a pistol. A form one is for the modification of a Rifle into a SBR.
Quote:
Ok, in line one you see it means "a rifle". This is the key because the draco is in fact by definition a pistol. It is a modified Pistol not a modified Rifle. Its is completely legal to add a stock to a pistol.
Not to be too harsh or anything, but that is completely and utterly wrong. Not wrong as in a difference of opinion, glock is better than 1911 wrong, but spend a decade in federal prison and loose any hope of touching firearms ever again wrong.

What you're missing is in the definition of "rifle". By adding a stock to a pistol, you are making a "weapon designed or redesigned...and intended to be fired from the shoulder". So when you add a stock to your Draco AK, you now have a rifle, not a pistol. Then you have to look at the weapon under the rules of rifles, which means your barrel under 16" puts you squarely into NFA territory.


Quote:
ァ 5845. Definitions
....
(c) Rifle
The term ‘‘rifle’’ means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

People adding stocks to glocks and 1911s (and other traditional pistols) are still creating a SBR (unless they also put on a barrel 16" or longer), they're just lucky that they don't get caught. And the ATF will in fact deny and refund the transfer tax if the weapon does not meet the definition of a NFA device.



I know this is kind of a harsh response to your first post, but spreading stuff like this especially in regards to NFA weapons is a good way to get people in trouble. As I'm sure you know "some guy on the internet said it was ok" is not a good defense in federal court.
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Old September 27, 2014, 06:55 PM   #39
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Dinosaur thread... but...

Not to be too harsh or anything, but that is completely and utterly wrong.


^^ This. It's a one-way ticket to Club Fed to be ignorant of the laws associated with this subject.



Willie


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Old September 28, 2014, 09:59 AM   #40
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Now, I am by no means a lawyer
I am. You're wrong. It has already been explained why. The Glock stocks also make Glocks into NFA firearms.

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Old September 28, 2014, 04:35 PM   #41
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Its is completely legal to add a stock to a pistol.
Ignorance might be forgivable if you'd asked if it was legal to add a stock to a pistol, but to show up and declare that committing a felony is "completely legal" is inexcusable when it is so very easy to check the accuracy of such a claim.
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Old September 28, 2014, 04:51 PM   #42
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I have seen so many posts with people talking about turning there Draco Ak "PISTOL" into an SBR. There is no need to file a form 1 when adding a stock because the Draco is by definition a pistol.
Look up the federal definition of pistol. When you add a stock you are taking it outside of that definition.
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Old September 29, 2014, 10:47 PM   #43
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EHHH adding a stock to a pistol makes it a rifle, so there for it is NOT legal without ATF approval and a $200 stamp...NOT that need's to be reitterated again..

Anyway...the real reason I meant to comment...
Quote:
The days of $300-$400 AK's of any kind are behind us
NOT NECESSARILY... I purchased a $399 shipped with 3 mags, M92 PAP. Brand new. Now you can find them for about $420-440 but I have seen a few 400 AK's. Most of them are rifles. I would assume because the pistols are less common and therefore catch a little premium (but that is simply a presumption).

Look hard enough and wait for sales and I think you can find a $400 AK...
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Old September 30, 2014, 02:04 PM   #44
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I think the M92 PAP is the easiest to do and 10.25 is a very good barrel length for a 7.62x39mm.

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Old October 3, 2014, 03:49 PM   #45
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I think the M92 PAP is the easiest to do and 10.25 is a very good barrel length for a 7.62x39mm.
MY biggest trouble was trying to find something to flatten the rear trunnion since the m92 is slanted. Finally I read enough reviews from people saying it was not necessary. Then my problem was finding a competent gunsmith willing to do it. I thought I did until he installed the ACE backwards. When he fixed it he drilled larger holes and used nuts on the other end instead of tapping and threading like I asked. BUT it works and is functional.

ANYWAY...yes I liked it because of its length. It is still shorter than my 10.5" SBR AR and about the same size of my 7" 9mm SBR.

The velocity is still damn good for a rifle of it's size. Where the micro Draco's for me lost too much for an AK... especially since I already had 5.56 and 9MM SBR's.

I like it. My only complaint is I have not yet added any muzzle attachements aside from the stock one and it is LOUD.
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Old October 4, 2014, 10:37 AM   #46
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If you want to use irons, I'm told the angle is just about right. If you need a higher comb to use a red dot, several companies offer angle plates: http://stormwerkz.com/accessories/ak-sling-plates/

Here is a picture of what I am doing (not my gun):


I put the 4th and final coat (a light coat to minimized the gloss) of linseed oil on my wood last night. Bulgarian 4 piece is in place and the rear trunnion holes are marked for drilling but not yet drilled. Waiting for the ATF right now.

ATF has contradicted themselves whether 922r applies to an SBR, applies to modifications to an existing gun, and applies when making a rife from a pistol. However I'm covered if it does indeed apply. Tapco trigger, disconnector, hammer, American made Muzzle device, Magpul grip, and Manticore stock take me down to 10 imported "parts".

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