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Old February 15, 2013, 12:45 AM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donut Destroyer
The key factors are buying AND selling and frequency...
Not necessarily.

See the cases I cited in post 13. Federal courts of appeal are explicitly telling us the factors that are to be considered in deciding if someone is "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms. We need to listen to what the courts are telling us and not substitute our own judgment or interpretation.

We read the cases because in future cases other courts will make their decisions based on what prior courts have said. It is critical to understand what courts have done in past cases in order to be able to reasonably anticipate what courts are likely to do in future cases.
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Old February 15, 2013, 11:46 AM   #27
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Quote:
Federal courts of appeal are explicitly telling us the factors that are to be considered in deciding if someone is "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms. We need to listen to what the courts are telling us and not substitute our own judgment or interpretation.
Do you know of any such cases where the reseller is not an individual, but a for-profit LLC or corp that does not hold an FFL?
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:37 PM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles
Quote:
Federal courts of appeal are explicitly telling us the factors that are to be considered in deciding if someone is "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms. We need to listen to what the courts are telling us and not substitute our own judgment or interpretation.
Do you know of any such cases where the reseller is not an individual, but a for-profit LLC or corp that does not hold an FFL?
No, but I didn't look at every single case.

I did a natural language search on a subscription legal data base (Fastcase) and got many pages of hits. Some cases of course weren't on point. I did quick scans until I found a sample of cases which directly addressed an "engaged in business" determination.
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Old February 19, 2013, 10:00 PM   #29
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I think that if you have a dozen guns, and every once in a while you sell or trade one off to get a different one that you want more, you are ok. Different if you do this on a regular basis and deal in a hundred guns a year.
Just my 2 cents, but most people do get tired of guns cars and anything else, and at some point their tastes change, I don't consider that being in business. If you go on FL guntrader, that's what you will see,"for the most part" but there are guys who are selling a dozen guns, "I would think that is probablly illegal". But I have traded a gun here and there, maybe one or two times a year, "usually to step up to a better model", "or a change in interest". I don't think that is a problem
Also if someone offers you double what the gun is worth and they can legally own a gun, why not sell it to them. I had that happen several times, just by changing grips and sights on a stock gun. If someone offers me the right price, everything is for sale.
A guy wanted a 45, and I had one he liked, he traded me for a gun that cost double so I traded him. As it turned out he was doing a trade with his brother and needed 2, 45's to trade for a shotgun his brother had, and he liked mine, he told me this after we had met and done the deal, but he was a ccw holder, "not that he had to be" so I ended up with a better gun, he ended up with a shotgun he wanted. Many people don't know what their gun is worth or it's not important to them, so why let it get away.Also some of us have been buying guns for 40 or more years, and things just change, like revolvers, when I started shooting everyone had a revolver,1971, now I have no revolvers.
I think the law is made for people "as mentioned several times" who make a living doing this or even a second source of income, not the occasional shooter who decides he wants a different gun.
Some guys are never happy, and sell every gun they buy after a few months, those are the ones I like to run into, it's like cars, let the first guy take the beating.
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Old April 13, 2013, 12:19 PM   #30
deadin
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FWIW, Here is a listing of “charges” (or talking points) the ATF used when charging an acquaintance with dealing w/o a license. This happened years ago but I imagine it is still valid.
1. He advertised in the local paper for “Guns for Sale/Wanted”
2. He kept detailed records of costs and profits
3. He took returns. (They set him up with “I don’t like the gun you sold me, will you take it back on trade for something else/)
4. They indicated that they were buying a gun for a friend. (Straw Purchase? I didn’t think it could be a straw purchase unless you lied on a 4473. Not being a licensed dealer, there was no 4473 to lie on….).
5. He was “supplementing” his retirement.
6. He took consignments.
I don’t know which of these “charges” were just add-ons or which were the actual ones that kicked him over the line.
His defense that buying/selling guns WAS his hobby didn’t cut much with the court.

In my opinion he was dealing without a license and I don't know why he didn't just get one. At the time this happened there were no restrictions enforced about location, city permits, etc.
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Old April 17, 2013, 08:24 PM   #31
Frank Ettin
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The subject has been pretty well covered, and the thread has started to attract nonproductive posts. So I'll close the thread.

If anyone has something substantive to add that he or she thinks will materially advance our understanding of the subject, please send me a PM; and I can consider opening the thread.
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