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Old April 24, 2013, 09:48 PM   #51
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Too much? Naw. My first pick? Naw again.
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Old April 25, 2013, 03:11 PM   #52
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S & W

If a 40 is "Short & Weak-It sure has taken the LE community by storm. What does that make the 9's that were the best thing since sliced bread before the advent of the "Short & Weak?
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Old April 25, 2013, 05:30 PM   #53
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It's never too much for self defense. I am a big fan of my G29. I can wear it IWB comfortably.
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Old April 25, 2013, 09:54 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK11 View Post
It's not too much if you train with it. But can you afford to shoot it enough (or even find enough 10mm) to be proficient?
Surely, I reload. I have my Critical Defense fir PD, but I just bought 600 bullets to reload for practice...with more to come. Much more.
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Old April 27, 2013, 09:20 PM   #55
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Too much, no. But I prefer to go back to my .45 ACP when I return to the concrete jungle. I use the Glock 29 while up at my place in the National Forest.
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Old April 27, 2013, 09:39 PM   #56
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^^^ I agree with Stevie-Ray. When I'm in Vermont there's a much greater threat from wild animals, so I carry my Delta Elite. When I'm in the city, it's back to one of my various .45s.
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Old April 27, 2013, 10:40 PM   #57
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That's funny, never heard that.
10mm is probably one of the most versatile cartridges. As
Low as 40 S&W and as high as .41 Mag or better. For the
City I like Hornady's 155 grn. XTP, .357 Mag power, but
A .40 cal. Hole to begin with.

Semper Fi
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Old April 28, 2013, 12:06 AM   #58
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The 10mm can be a .40S&W, .45 ACP or .357 Mag, depending on what load you choose.
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Old April 29, 2013, 09:59 AM   #59
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The 10mm is a good cartridge, but a .41 Magnum it isn't. Talk about old myths dying hard, this one just hangs on for some reason. The thing is, the 10mm and .40 S&W have much more in common than the 10mm and .41 Magnum.

The 10mm and .40 shoot the exact same caliber bullet (.400-.401"), same exact bullet weight (135-220/230gr). The only difference is velocity, and in this case with the same (or similar) barrel length a warm 10mm has about a 100-150 fps advantage over a warm .40 S&W.

The .41 Magnum, although slight does shoot a larger caliber bullet (.410-.411"), shoots heavier bullets (I've seen up to 300gr) and is faster than the 10mm.

I've loaded for the 10mm and still load for the .40, and I know what both are capable of. What's closer?

.410" .41 Magnum, 265gr hardcast @ 1,450 fps (Buffalo Bore ammo)

.400" 10mm Auto, 180gr JHP @ 1400-1450 fps (very warm handload from 6" barrel)

OR...

.400" 10mm Auto, 180gr JHP @ 1400-1450 fps (very warm handload from 6" barrel)

.400" .40 S&W, 180gr JHP @ 1300-1350 fps (warm handload from 6" barrel)

10mm is a good cartridge, I just don't see it having a huge advantage in terms of auto loaders. A .41 Mag is bigger and badder for sure. If I want more than my .40 S&W in a pistol, out comes the .45 Super Glock 21 throwing 250-275gr hardcasts at 1100-1175 fps.
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Last edited by SDGlock23; April 29, 2013 at 10:07 AM.
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Old April 29, 2013, 10:13 AM   #60
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The negatives are simple. Can YOU control it and do YOU have confidence in YOUR abilities with the gun and ammo?

If you answer NO to any of those questions, move on until you find something you answer YES to them.

I have full confidence in my 10mm's. I have seen them stop animals and I shoot enough of them that I can accurately shoot them well. Yes there will be a heck of a blast but when the chips are down, I am full confidence that I can hit and hit accurately. Do I carry my 10mm's often? No. 380's and 9mm's are more often due to living in the humid south. But when I think there is even the remotest risk, I first question why I would even consider going into such a situation, but if the need arises out comes the big 10mm.
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Old April 29, 2013, 02:51 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
The 10mm is a good cartridge, but a .41 Magnum it isn't. Talk about old myths dying hard, this one just hangs on for some reason. The thing is, the 10mm and .40 S&W have much more in common than the 10mm and .41 Magnum.

The 10mm and .40 shoot the exact same caliber bullet (.400-.401"), same exact bullet weight (135-220/230gr). The only difference is velocity, and in this case with the same (or similar) barrel length a warm 10mm has about a 100-150 fps advantage over a warm .40 S&W.

The .41 Magnum, although slight does shoot a larger caliber bullet (.410-.411"), shoots heavier bullets (I've seen up to 300gr) and is faster than the 10mm.

I've loaded for the 10mm and still load for the .40, and I know what both are capable of. What's closer?

.410" .41 Magnum, 265gr hardcast @ 1,450 fps (Buffalo Bore ammo)

.400" 10mm Auto, 180gr JHP @ 1400-1450 fps (very warm handload from 6" barrel)

OR...

.400" 10mm Auto, 180gr JHP @ 1400-1450 fps (very warm handload from 6" barrel)

.400" .40 S&W, 180gr JHP @ 1300-1350 fps (warm handload from 6" barrel)

10mm is a good cartridge, I just don't see it having a huge advantage in terms of auto loaders. A .41 Mag is bigger and badder for sure. If I want more than my .40 S&W in a pistol, out comes the .45 Super Glock 21 throwing 250-275gr hardcasts at 1100-1175 fps.
You're missing a couple of key points, how do you plan to conceal the 41 mag or a .40/6" that you wrote of? Also, why would you choose to carry a 265gr WFN/1450fps in a populated area? Does your .41 mag match 10mm split times?

If you are loading to SAAMI specs, I find your .40 chronograph results to be very generous.

Unless one is shooting all copper bullets, .40 cal JHP bullets should be kept in the <1300fps range to retain bullet integrity at personal defense distances.

Here's a decent review of a 10mm/1911, 125gr Barnes (all copper Double Tap ammunition) bullet knocking on 1600 fps. Watch the video and the recoil is very manageable;

http://www.gunblast.com/Colt-DeltaElite.htm
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Old April 29, 2013, 07:19 PM   #62
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I agree the 10MM is not a 41 mag. The comparison is not relavant to me. My point is that the 10MM is everything in a SD round it needs to be. I think its more akin to the .357 Mag but with a larger meplat. I always like to select a gun/cartridge combination that is a little more than what I need it for. This allows me to pick the right load for the task at hand. AND, if I want a little more both cartidge and gun are capable of the slight additional capacity. A little off topic but I really like the .45 automatic, but it's pentration abilities (in barriers that is) are on the weak side.
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Old April 29, 2013, 07:40 PM   #63
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I think that we are forgetting that all handgun rounds are marginal at best for true self defense. Even .45's and .44's get mixed results on human targets, especially if the target is on pain numbing drugs. To pick the 10mm and say it is too much is probably not the issue. The issue might be whether the person considering the use of the 10mm is yet seasoned enough as a shooter to effectively employ the 10mm in a defensive situation. It may be "too much" for some shooters to shoot well, but it is not too much for incapacitation in defensive situations.
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Old April 29, 2013, 08:33 PM   #64
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If you want to use the 10mm for SD against humans, a good load would be PMC's 170gr HP @1200 fps. It's a superbly accurate load, completely controllable, even at rapid fire, and is certainly not wimpy by any means. I've shot many hundreds over the years. Switch over to nuclear loads when confronting larger beasts than humans is possible.
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Old April 30, 2013, 11:11 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2zulu1
You're missing a couple of key points, how do you plan to conceal the 41 mag or a .40/6" that you wrote of? Also, why would you choose to carry a 265gr WFN/1450fps in a populated area? Does your .41 mag match 10mm split times?

If you are loading to SAAMI specs, I find your .40 chronograph results to be very generous.

Unless one is shooting all copper bullets, .40 cal JHP bullets should be kept in the <1300fps range to retain bullet integrity at personal defense distances.

Here's a decent review of a 10mm/1911, 125gr Barnes (all copper Double Tap ammunition) bullet knocking on 1600 fps. Watch the video and the recoil is very manageable
No plans to conceal any 6" anything. I brought up 6" simply because that's a common barrel length between them (6" revolver, 6" 10mm and 6" 40). I wouldn't carry a .41 Mag 265gr/1450fps in a populated area, the only purpose for that is essentially to represent full power loads in each.

You speak of SAAMI specs, but I can tell you this that 1400-1450 fps 10mm 180gr is overpressure. Is a 180gr .40 at 1300+? According to Hodgdon, Longshot will do 1150 from a .40 S&W with several K psi to spare. That load from a 4" G23 averages just over 1150, from a 5.3" G35 it's above 1250 fps and from a 6" barrel it is indeed above 1300 fps in a .40 S&W.

I agree that 1300 fps is about the most .40 cal JHP's should be driven...well at least 180gr-200gr. Some of the more shallow cavity Gold Dots like the 155gr and 165gr will hold up to more, but not a whole lot more, 1400-1450 fps for them IMHO.
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Old April 30, 2013, 11:51 AM   #66
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I carry a 10mm, when I can dress to conceal it. Otherwise I carry a 9mm. But, I'd rather have the 10mm!!

Handguns, in general, aren't nearly a effective as we'd like to think.
I'll take any edge I can get.
You don't get into "too powerful" until somewhere around .44 mag. Even then SD loads are generally dialed back, a bit.

As already mentioned, 10mm is comparable to .357 mag. Only with less perceived recoil, faster reloads, and higher capacity. I also find a full size 10mm conceals better than a full size .357 mag.

Most SD loads for 10mm are "watered down." You have to go out of your way get stuff that really reaches the 10mm's potential.

When we get into magnum velocity cartridges, with properly designed hollow points. Velocity provides relatively controlled expansion and penetration. I assume we're not talking hunting our FMJ rounds?

The only drawback is that even a compact 10mm is fairly big. Plus 10mm is long enough to require a .45acp length grip. Not so great for those with small hands.
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Old April 30, 2013, 09:29 PM   #67
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SDGlock23; I don't have a chrono, but let's look at a
Factory .41 Mag out of a 4" barrel and a hot 10mm out
Of a 5" barrel. I would agree a hot .41 Mag from a longer
Barrel would far exceed a 10mm. The topic is SD, and I
Think a service size handgun would be a more realistic
Comparison. Not to mention capacity. Now, I have always
Felt a G20 would be a pretty good choice for a woods gun.
I'm sure the reasons are self apparent, if someone might
Have a need. But that is a different topic. Back to if a 10mm
Is too much or just fine for SD. Like I've said, .357 Mag
Power, starting out with a bigger hole. Also, it's a cartridge
With more or less if you want it to be.

Semper Fi
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Old May 1, 2013, 02:49 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
No plans to conceal any 6" anything. I brought up 6" simply because that's a common barrel length between them (6" revolver, 6" 10mm and 6" 40). I wouldn't carry a .41 Mag 265gr/1450fps in a populated area, the only purpose for that is essentially to represent full power loads in each.

You speak of SAAMI specs, but I can tell you this that 1400-1450 fps 10mm 180gr is overpressure. Is a 180gr .40 at 1300+? According to Hodgdon, Longshot will do 1150 from a .40 S&W with several K psi to spare. That load from a 4" G23 averages just over 1150, from a 5.3" G35 it's above 1250 fps and from a 6" barrel it is indeed above 1300 fps in a .40 S&W.

I agree that 1300 fps is about the most .40 cal JHP's should be driven...well at least 180gr-200gr. Some of the more shallow cavity Gold Dots like the 155gr and 165gr will hold up to more, but not a whole lot more, 1400-1450 fps for them IMHO.
Not sure where to begin. Handloaded 10mm/180gr JHPs 1400fps+ doesn't necessarily put it it in the over pressure category, but XTPs and Gold Dots certainly fragment at those velocities. Going back about seven years and using Hornady, IMR 800X, load data for a 175gr Silvertip, I got 1398fps, ES 37fps, SD 13fps through a 6" KKM barrel. The Silvertip fragmented so much that I stopped developing the load.

I don't see 6" barrels in 10mm or .40 as being common. I've tested .40 cal JHPs through a CX-4 Storm and found the increased velocity through the 16" barrel overwhelmed JHP designs.

The 155gr/165gr Gold Dots you thought were shallow cavity designs are in fact deep cavity designs. At this time, Speer does not make a shallow cavity Gold Dot in .40 cal. If you look in the upper right corner of the yellow boxes you'll notice the bullet and cavity outline, deep cavity for the 165gr Gold Dot and shallow cavity 125gr GD.



Visually, it's very easy to compare the cavity size differences. Bullet designers increase the hollow cavity area to get hollow point bullets to reliably expand at lower velocities. The blued magazine on the left is loaded with .40 S&W 165gr Gold Dots, a visit to the ATK website will give you all the FBI protocol data for this LE ammunition. The .38 Super, single stack magazine on the right is loaded with 125gr GDs ~mid 1400s.

Since this thread is about using the 10mm for self defense, we'll compare the 10mm with the 357 mag and 38 Super, all running bullets in the 1400s, as close as I could match them.

Shallow cavity 125gr GD @1436fps, 38 Super;





Text book symmetrical expansion, good for about 16" of soft tissue penetration.

10mm is often compared to the .357 mag as having more power, however one describes power. Old tech, exposed lead tip 158gr Winchester JHP, 1437fps;



Another text book symmetrical expansion, slight weight loss, but good for about 20" of penetration. Sectional density of this bullet is about the same as the 10mm 200gr.

Now, 10mm 155gr Gold Dot, 1420fps;



Deep cavity Gold Dots don't perform well at velocities designed for shallow cavities, in this test, recovered weight was only 132.9grs. Bullet also over expanded, think opening a parachute, plus, the loss of one petal would likely cause the bullet to tumble. Penetration good for ~8.6".

For 10mm handloading, I target JHPs to 1250-1265fps for reliable expansion at personal defense distances. The exception to this being the 125gr/155gr Barnes bullet, I'll be testing Double Tap ammunition soon.
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Old May 1, 2013, 12:59 PM   #69
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Good pictures there. As for the 6" barrels, I chose those because they're available for all of them, I could have chosen a 4", but while I know of 4" .40's I don't know of any 4" 10mm's, but close (G29 vs G23), or maybe 4.5" vs 4.6", etc. Most 10mm guys to buy the 6" barrel since it's velocity they're after, that's why I chose the 6". Common? Yes in terms of availability, not so much in terms of being a top choice for everyday carry.

When I loaded for the 10mm, I was able to break 1400 fps from a 6+" barrel (180gr), but I was using loads that were over book, but I'm sure it can get pretty close depending on powder. Longshot would get me around 1265-ish from the G20, I can't find all of the data I had for the 6", but could see where high 1300's would be possible.

As for the Gold Dots, I didn't say the 155gr and 165gr were shallow compared to say a 125gr .355gr 357 Sig, but "shallowER" (I said MORE shallow...maybe not a good grammar choice ) than the 180gr Gold Dot. Your results are exactly what I would expect, more penetration with the .355" Gold Dot and .357" JHP compared to the lower sectional density 155gr .400". The true shallow cavity Gold Dots do hold up better for sure, I simply should have said that the shallower the cavity, it seems the better it holds up compared to deeper cavities.
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Old May 1, 2013, 01:12 PM   #70
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No. The Federal 'Personal Defense' 180gr JHPs are about equal to 185gr .45ACP+P loads. I have never heard .45Auto being too much gun for personal defense.
What amazes me about most 10mm guys is that like 9mm Luger guys they try to "squeeze" every fps out of the cartridge.
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Old May 1, 2013, 01:23 PM   #71
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Quote:
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No. The Federal 'Personal Defense' 180gr JHPs are about equal to 185gr .45ACP+P loads. I have never heard .45Auto being too much gun for personal defense.
What amazes me about most 10mm guys is that like 9mm Luger guys they try to "squeeze" every fps out of the cartridge.
Well I don't know about that.. the common theme these days, it seems/is portrayed that anything +P or ++ is akin to suicide given all the pocket gats everyone carries.
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Old May 1, 2013, 01:28 PM   #72
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Not too much and certainly *more than* enough; pick the right ammo for the situation and you're good to go.
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Old May 1, 2013, 04:27 PM   #73
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"too much?"

No, no caliber is magic. Only big downside is if you don't practice with it as much as you would 9/40/45 or whatever.
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Old June 3, 2015, 11:23 PM   #74
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My Glock 29 is a little fatter than some concealed carry guns, but no one has spotted it yet! .......................................................................................... [IMG][/IMG]
From an earlier thread, I'm guessing you may be carrying a .32 ACP for back up?
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Old June 3, 2015, 11:43 PM   #75
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In my opinion the 10mm is a superb cartridge for self defense. After all, the 10mm was DESIGNED to kill people as efficiently as possible.

Power-wise the 10mm is essentially the twin brother of the .357 magnum.
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