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Old July 13, 2013, 08:20 PM   #51
Teachu2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbpagent72 View Post
That is the reason why I decided to pay a bit more and get my Summit Denali gun safe. 7 gauge body and 1/2" plate door, between that and my Alarm system and camera system, I finally have some peace of mind.

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Agreed. I actually got my Denali at the local Liberty dealer. Impressive safe for a homeowner.
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Old July 19, 2013, 07:49 AM   #52
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRRO...e_gdata_player

I like some of the features of this safe and I'm glad to see some companies starting to make interiors that are set-up for AR's and other similar rifles.

With that said, the video doesn't mention any sort of U/L security rating nor is there any mention of steel thickness. Note how easily the gentleman starts the door swinging near the end of the video. That door looks awfully lightweight to me.


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Old July 19, 2013, 10:31 PM   #53
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Here's something that was posted over on ar15.com. This was written by a gentleman named Tony. He works for AMSEC and is one of their safe designers.


The UL RSC Test is no trivial matter, it is conducted by the same guys that do the TL high security safe testing. These guys "know" everything, and even though the test is run with only one attack technician, there is a group watching and consulting at every step of the test to assure the best approach and methods are applied. The tool list basically allows anything in your toolbox, with limits on the drill bit size to 1/4" diameter and sledge hammers no more than 3lbs, and prying devices no more than 18 inches long. The only power tool allowed is a hand-held drill.

The tool complement may seem unimpressive, but that is definitely not the case. I have watched them make a 3/4" diameter hole with a 1/4" drill bit in 20 seconds. They modify tools (without any time penalty off the test clock) so that they can be more effective. They abuse tools way beyond their intended application. The drill bits are top quality, and the testing techs know how to make them work at their optimum. If they can bend, grind, cut or shape a tool for a special need, that's allowed and off the clock.

The test is limited to five (5) minutes, but that is very deceiving. The clock only runs when there is tool-on-product, and a single 5 minute test can take more than an hour to run. Also, the team can run as many different 5-minute attacks as they choose. So, if they see multiple areas they suspect are vulnerable, they can go at each attempt as they desire. A full range of testing generally takes the better part of the day, unless you know your stuff and have left very little to concern them. These guys have seen it all, from every manufacturer in the world, at every level of security. They can pretty well look at a safe, drawings and pull the door cover to decide if the safe is a good design or not.

The Lock is a key area, as you might guess. For a lock hardplate, there are many approaches to protecting that area. The simplest of which is to put a thick carburized (case hardened) plate under the entire locking area so that the lock, the relocker(s) and the point of engagement with the Locking Bar, so that entire area is protected. That plate needs to be at least 1/4" gauge steel, if not more, and have a Rockwell C of at least 56. That is roughly the hardness of a good mill-file. The most vulnerable spot in the mechanism is the point where the Locking Bar contacts the Lock Bolt. This is UL's favorite drill point.

The UL guys drill with uncanny precision. They have the drawings, and they disassemble the safe to plan their attack. The attack method used is to bore a hole right thru the center of that contact point where the Locking Bar meets the Lock Bolt, taking off a piece of the Lock Bolt and a chunk of the Locking Bar. This pierce alone allows the boltwork to move toward the unlocked position another good bit more than normal. They then cram a nice new bit in the hole and crank it up full speed and start hanging on the handle to press the locking bar into the drill bit. They wrangle the drill around as this pressure on the handle forces the locking bar to get milled off on the side of the drill flutes. All the while, they are twisting and rotating the drill making the hole larger and larger. Once they get thru the hardplate, they can get this milling operation to pull back the boltwork enough to use a pry bar to open the door in a couple minutes. This is the primary reason you see shear points and clutch devices on the Handles of better safes, so the side-force at the lock bolt is limited in this attack approach.

The best defense here is to have a hardplate in that specific area that is too difficult to penetrate with a high grade Carbide tipped drill bit and a good quality (Milwaukee) high power hand drill. A carburized plate is nowhere near good enough to hold up to this attack. A skilled operator can put a hole in a Rc 58-60 hardplate in under 2 minutes. There must be more than that in this one sweet spot. There is a company in LA that sells a disk we call the "Gunsafe Disc", and it will hold up to this drill attack. It's not cheap, but it's effective. It's a 1-1/4" diameter round disc that is a bit under 1/4" thick. One side is heat-treated tool steel, the other side is a high-temp silver-soldered matrix of Tungsten Carbide powder. The whole assembly is heat treated to a high level of hardness. We punch a hole in the Carburized Hardplate (before hardening) so this Disc sits under the lock bolt hidden under the mounting plate.

Players that have not attempted to get their RSC rating are unaware of the intensity and effectiveness of this test. The UL rating does present a much higher level of security assurance. There are other more simple techniques that UL uses to defeat Boltwork systems. They study the entire Boltwork system, and look for points where a hole under a specific point (or points) would allow a punch to collapse or buckle a key element or elements in the system. They also look for fasteners and connections that are easily removed, broken or drilled off. Remember, the whole door is easy to punch holes thru, so they can attack 5-6 points in under 5 minutes with ease. The clock only runs when tools are on the safe, so five minutes of testing can take an hour or more. I see those weaknesses in unlisted products. So, when you see a Boltwork with lots of fancy gears, clusters of big linkages, and pretty chrome plated parts, don't be so impressed. Most of those things are there to impress the uneducated eye. They offer very little in added security, and in some cases actually provide compromise opportunities. A basic 3-bolt system on the locking side is just as effective as a 30-bolt system with bolts on all four sides. It's all glitz, and no go.

Other methods include side-attack on the Boltwork, unlike the TL-15 and TL-30 testing. They can, and will attempt to punch the boltwork back by accessing one or more locking bolt thru the side and banging on it with incredible skill with a heavy punch. This is where the timid fail. Good punch resistance is not easy to come by, and requires several preventative measures to assure it survives.

Pry attack, wedge and sledge on the door gaps, hinge removal are all on the table, and they will exploit any weakness there. If deadbolts are not effective, you can fail real fast. You would be shocked at how fast these guys can knock off those pretty glossy brass-capped hinges on the safe. Last, they test the body, even if you meet or exceed the material minimum requirements that are not documented. You don't get a pass because you use heavier steel. They like to drill a circle of holes about 4 inches in diameter with the drill, then punch out the plug. This takes every bit of 5 minutes with an 10 gauge body. Dual steel layers add to the difficulty and allow slightly lighter outer steel barriers. Much of this testing is left to luck and cosmic tides. If you get a bad break, and a test that would typically be easy becomes a failure point, too bad, you lose. The opposite applies too, so if a tech has a bad day, misses a drill point, breaks a tool where it's stuck in the breech, you win a favorable outcome.

That's most of the UL RSC testing in a bucket. There is a lot more, but these are the fundamentals. I assure you, it is no trivial effort to achieve a rating. Particularly if you are not a seasoned security producer with extensive experience. Testing is expensive. I think the most recent price was around $12,000 to run this test. Most have to come back twice to get their listing. Anyone that says they passed on the first try is probably telling a lie. Most of the guys in this industry didn't have a clue until they went in for testing. Most everyone comes away shocked and disappointed.



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Old July 20, 2013, 02:11 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanzo581 View Post
You've posted the pictures twice in this thread, can we have some info on the opening of that? Like how much time it took, how many people, what tools, was it pulled out of the floor/wall assuming it was bolted down properly etc....
Here's the thread showing the info on the Red Head:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread...ht=safe+broken
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Old July 20, 2013, 03:03 PM   #55
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Sigh...Yet again people.
Always bolt your safe in a strategic strong point location as this is going to be your best chance to thwart a pry attack.
And if your going to buy a gun safe at least buy one that has the UL rating and more importantly one that has plate steel in the damn door and not just some flexomatic sheet metal door wrapped around sheet rock insulation.
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Old July 20, 2013, 05:28 PM   #56
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As a follow-up to my earlier post in this thread back in late March, I ended up plunking down the cash and ordering an AMSEC BF6636 (textured granite w/black nickel hardware). It is still not here yet and it was a lot more than we really wanted to spend, but I hope it lasts a lifetime (my wife REALLY hopes it lasts that long...).

I still believe that the interiors put in from companies such as Browning are pretty compelling for the average person shopping at a big box store. if i was a hunter (i'm not) and had a ton of long guns, it would be hard not to like many of the features on those safes. at the end of the day though there is a difference in the security, and that's what we're buying it for. it is slightly frustrating to know that even despite the expense of my choice, there is some point in the future where i will have to get creative with long gun storage in there, and even will potentially need to get a cheap gun locker for insignificant stuff like a kid's .410 or a .22 lr.

i'm sure i would have been happy with a Sturdy safe, but was able to get a reasonably good deal on the AMSEC locally and they are going to handle the delivery down a sloping driveway. touching and feeling something so expensive beforehand is also helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amking View Post
has anyone recently taken a look at the 2013 models from Browning? (specifically the silver and medallion series)

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...asp?catalog_=F

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/brow...222_17696.html
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/brow...1_222_227.html

i understand the whole conversation and concerns around the composite door and (relatively) thin gauge steel body (medallion is 10 gauge, silver 11 gauge), as well as the argument around fireboard vs other options, but i think for the average consumer that is going to stick well under the $3,500/$4,000+ RSC level it is hard not to look at Browning's newer modular interiors and the door storage system. i originally was very very high on the AMSEC BF series (and still am), but when i take the advice of buying a bigger model and configuring it the way i would like it just gets incredibly expensive.... and frankly the storage/interior options some of the manufacturers are putting out there really need some updating. maybe i'm getting caught up in all the marketing, but i think that if you're not going to spend the truly big bucks on a higher ended safe, and want to at least get off the base level ($1000 or less), these Browning models might be worth a look. throw a media or document safe in the bottom for delicate items/paper and move on.

thoughts or feedback? (I am specifically looking at the SR26/M28 and SR37/M39 models)



side note: based on a variety of things, such as the internal hinges and some other stuff, the Liberty's are not on my list. although I think for the average consumer, Liberty is one hell of a marketing company and has their product mix, advertising and distribution spot on. its just not for me.
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Old July 20, 2013, 07:13 PM   #57
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Amking;

If you have access to a scroll saw, it's perfectly possible to cut your own interior configuration. Also, storing every other gun muzzle down works for some people. Others just pull the stock interior slot board, put all the long guns in socks & cram 'em in there.

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Old July 20, 2013, 08:50 PM   #58
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So instead of lugging in some 2200lb multi thousand dollar monstrosity I put that money into hardening my entire home. I don't really care about a safe for fire protection, I have no heirlooms, everything I have is replaceable, I just wanted something that would simply keep kids/nosey people out, and slow a criminal down a bit until the police arrived after the alarm went off.

For that, I don't see why anything basic from Sams, Dicks, Bass Pro etc wouldn't due.

Will it stand up to two people working on it for 15 min? No, but you should have other defenses before it gets to that.
Around here neighbors aren't generally close enough to hear break-ins and tend to mind their own business anyway, which is fine with me. The average police response time is normally 3-5 hrs.
I have a shop full of power tools, many of them metal cutting tools like Metabo saws and Porta-bands, not to mention an oxy/acetylene torch.

If someone really wants to get into my safe they will. Probably the best thing I could do is get a Rottweiler.







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Old July 21, 2013, 09:24 AM   #59
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I have a 425lbs 24 gun Cannon safe. I purchased this to protect against mainly smash and grab type burglaries and fire protection. For 600 dollars it is a good safe. But I know it would not keep a professional out or even a guy who brought in power tools. Its superior to Stack On or some of those other cheap over priced safes but not as good as a Liberty or Fort Knox. It does have a outlet attachment that let me add a humidifier and LED lighting so every time I open the safe it lights up. I really like that feature.

It has a lifetime warranty against, burglars, fires, floods, etc.

Id suggest spending the extra money for hidden surveillance cameras.
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Old July 21, 2013, 01:03 PM   #60
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Zdriver;

In my professional opinion, your Cannon may very well be the superior RSC in comparison with the Liberty. And for the cost of a Ft. Knox, start looking at real safes, the additional cost isn't that big a step up.

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Old July 24, 2013, 10:29 AM   #61
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I bought a Canon 48 long gun safe with shelves on top for storage for hand guns or other small items. Although it is a secure safe and weighs 800 bs plus empty, I have three issues with it. 1st The shelving is cheap press board material. 2nd the spacing between guns are so close you won't be able to set bolt actions side by side. The 3rd and most important is the key pad failed 8 months into owning the safe. Trying to communicate with the California Canon safe people is difficult. Their phone system is the pits with very poor prompts and sometimes it just rings with no answer. Once I went through the rigerous tasks of having to go back to the dealer who sold it to me and then getting back to Canon Safe co. was an all day event. The up side is, they're going to ship a new key pad to a lock smith/safe company via two day air Fed-X at no cost to me. The lock smith is about 80 miles away. Now, if they do what they say they are going to do, then I can make this weekends gun. Otherwise, I'm sitting here with my thumbs stuck up my bazoo.
Canon is now providing a dual access safe, i.e. electronic key pad, as well as a dial entry access. I inquired about replacing my key pad only entry with the new dual access lock and they informed me that it won't fit my safe. They stated that it is designed to fit only the new safes!????? Crap, mine is only 8 months old.
Since I am in and out of my safe nearly every day, the digital key pad is very handy, but when failure occures, emotions start to well up since you can't access your prized posessions. So, that is an issue one needs to consider when buying a new safe.

Best of luck, Presidents_topgun
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Old July 24, 2013, 10:58 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USBP379
Here's the thread showing the info on the Red Head:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread...ht=safe+broken
That's a lot to read through, but I got all the info I needed. House was vacant when it happened, no telling how long the guy(s) took to open that safe but they had no time constraints. Not to mention no alarm. Again, cheap safes are really just to slow people down. You give someone all day (which these guys could have had) and any safe can be opened.
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Old July 24, 2013, 11:05 AM   #63
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I have an alarm in an inconspicuous place so if they try to rock my safe it breaks the alarm contact and sets of my alarm.

I also have a camera focused on it and it records 24/7.

Last edited by Beretta96; July 24, 2013 at 04:33 PM.
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Old August 25, 2013, 10:14 AM   #64
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Something else the brochure does not tell you about. This is a photo of the bottom of a Chinese import. The top and bottom of the safe are stitch welded on. The seam on the top is filled with body putty prior to painting but the seam along the bottom is left unfinished.

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Old August 25, 2013, 10:45 AM   #65
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Something else the brochure does not tell you about. This is a photo of the bottom of a Chinese import. The top and bottom of the safe are stitch welded on. The seam on the top is filled with body putty prior to painting but the seam along the bottom is left unfinished.

There are many safe built in this fashion, including safes with high burglary ratings, and even the modular vault used by your local bank. It doesn't matter if it is a continuous weld or "stitch welding" so long is the weld is of proper quality and strength.

I know people like to assume that stitch welding is an indication of low security construction. In reality, I'll claim that safes with very few seams are of low security. If the steel is thin enough that it can be bent into shape with a brake, as opposed to individual flat plates welded together, then it is thin enough to be breached in short order by any matter of attack (prying, cutting, etc.).
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Old August 25, 2013, 11:06 AM   #66
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Presidents topgun;

I'd suggest that you look into having the locksmith install a LaGard Basic electronic lock in your Cannon instead of the replacement they're supposed to. Yes, you'll have to pay for it. But it's a very reliable unit that we simply don't see problems with. OTOH, you could have an S&G 6730 manual dial lock put on & pay the price in increased entry time but the reliability is extremely hard to beat.

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Old August 25, 2013, 01:28 PM   #67
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There are many safe built in this fashion, including safes with high burglary ratings, and even the modular vault used by your local bank. It doesn't matter if it is a continuous weld or "stitch welding" so long is the weld is of proper quality and strength.

I know people like to assume that stitch welding is an indication of low security construction. In reality, I'll claim that safes with very few seams are of low security. If the steel is thin enough that it can be bent into shape with a brake, as opposed to individual flat plates welded together, then it is thin enough to be breached in short order by any matter of attack (prying, cutting, etc.).
I don't necessarily think stitch welds in and of themselves mean a safe is low quality but I do think stitch welds are used on the Chinese safes to meet a price point rather than a structural point.

Stitch welds combined with 14 or 12 gauge steel???

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Old August 25, 2013, 08:12 PM   #68
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? That mesa brand is certainly no better than a sentry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torian View Post
Sams Club and Costco have some decent economical options for gun safes. I bought a 500 pound Mesa brand safe from Sams Club (stores about 8 long guns and 4 handguns) for about 650 to include shipping, and I'm pretty happy with it.

Stay away from Sentry brand safes or similar low quality builds.


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Old August 25, 2013, 08:39 PM   #69
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? That mesa brand is certainly no better than a sentry.





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I've handled and owned both brands, and I respectively disagree. Neither are great safes, but Sentry is practically the bottom of the barrel. I almost knocked one over at Sams Club just looking at it. The Mesa brand is only slightly more expensive, but it has larger locking bolts, more of them, thicker steel, and almost 200 pounds heavier for the same dimension safe.

Neither are professional level safes, but the choice between one or the other is easy to anyone who has owned them.
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Old August 26, 2013, 01:15 PM   #70
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I've handled and owned both brands, and I respectively disagree. Neither are great safes, but Sentry is practically the bottom of the barrel. I almost knocked one over at Sams Club just looking at it. The Mesa brand is only slightly more expensive, but it has larger locking bolts, more of them, thicker steel, and almost 200 pounds heavier for the same dimension safe.

Neither are professional level safes, but the choice between one or the other is easy to anyone who has owned them.
I have to agree with you Torian for the money the Mesa is hard to beat. I looked at more safes over the last year than I want to think of and in the $1200 range to my door Mesa got my money.
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Old September 9, 2013, 09:48 PM   #71
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Hi, new guy here.... but some of the info in this thread is terrible. I can't quote for some reason, but I'll link to the post.

Tomcat posted this post: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....3&postcount=47 where the video is unimpressive at best. That's their presidential safe? I.e. the best they've got? Do you see how flexible that door is with just a few short pry bars? If those were real attacks they'd start at the corner and break the bolts/sheet body working in a different direction. These guys all work for the manufacturer, it's in their interest to show this in good light. Wouldn't be [relatively] hard to break into that RSC. For $1k I'd break into that RSC with a friend in no time.

I currently own a Liberty gun safe (albeit a low-end model) and I can flex the outer sheet metal with my finger. I bought it before I learned about real safes just to keep my guns away from kids.

Companies such as Liberty, Stack On, etc. are more advertising companies than anything. They have a recognizable name, but not serious security. When people say buy a "[Liberty, etc] because XYZ," the XYZ is usually only applies their top of the line safe which is used as marketing for the rest of the crap they sell. Don't buy a brand, buy the specific safe!

USBP378 posted the following: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....8&postcount=53

Although it sounds impressive, keep in mind that in order to get a UL RSC only the FRONT of the safe must pass and many safes claiming to be RSC aren't even UL rated. Read carefully, they'll say UL rated lock or something else and put a nice big UL sticker on there. That's the reason you can have a UL RSC that can just be punched with a small hammer and a screwdriver on the side. Or just a hammer.

Most RSC's are pretty unimpressive. People claim they "only want to stop a smash and grab" type person, but the reality is that they pay the money for a safe for protection, not protection against the least common denominator. If you want to keep guns away from your kids an RSC is great. If you want to keep your valuables secure then shop a real safe. If you're storing valuables, then this is an investment.

Remember, when you get a safe you typically concentrate your valuables in a single place. A burglar knows this and is extra motivated to get in.

Hopefully this post doesn't come off badly and I hope I didn't misrepresent any facts - I'm not a "safe guy" just learning. Just stating my opinion. Hope I didn't offend anyone
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Old September 9, 2013, 10:18 PM   #72
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I dont have safe specific experience, but I am in construction and in my opinion there is nothing on this planet, that cannot be opened, given the right tools and time. The key is to make them be loud, slow them down as much as possible, and do it in the light.

I've had job sites broken into with our Joboxes destroyed in just minutes....

I't was interesting reading about the UL testing for safes, sounds like a fun job!
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Old September 10, 2013, 01:07 AM   #73
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So, unless you spend thousands, getting a safe is not a good idea? That's what I'm gathering from this thread.
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Old September 10, 2013, 11:15 AM   #74
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I don't think that's what's being said at all, Cokeman.

Spend your money wisely, rather, is what I'm getting.

Like guns, once you seriously start shopping around for safes it looks like you can rapidly wind up spending a ton of money if you don't have clearly defined goals.

If what you need is a Home Security Container (HSC), say, because you're just concerned about keeping the kiddies safe, then there is no need to spend thousands.

Like guns, though, it looks like everybody has an opinion based on whatever they think is important. The key is to determine what YOU think is important.

We can all "GO BIG" on anything we want. Heck, on the subject of safes we could simply advocate buying a closed up bank building and using the vault if we want to go big.
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Old September 10, 2013, 12:04 PM   #75
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Fella's;

Yeah, I sell high end expensive true safes, and I'll flat-out tell anybody that anything is better than nothing. What the buyer needs to do is determine both the needs (not wants) and the threat level. Threat levels can be determined by talking with law enforcement, your fire department, and your insurance agent. This is also a good time to talk with several insurance providers and see who's going to give you the best coverage for you at what price.

Some insurance providers make no provision for a safe, some recognize the difference between an RSC (not HSC) and a true safe. Some say they'll cover the "contents" but ask to what maximum dollar amount. Others want a detailed list of guns & S/N's & possibly a video reference for other valuables. It's a good idea to shop around & get specific information. You'll be surprised at the differences available within the insurance industry. If the local agent is basically clueless on the subject of safes & RSC's ask to get the company's commercial division involved. These are the people who insure jewelry stores & other potential high loss customers & will know what a true U.L. rated safe is.

Keep in mind that the U.L. 1 hour thermal protection standard is the only one worth paying any attention to as a base line. Other "independant labs", BTU, Pyro 3000, or Omega Labs tests, etc, are just numbers that the marketing department manipulates to induce you to buy. A time/temp ratio means nothing until you know exactly what the test procedures are. You can go online & find them for the U.L. test, good luck with any of the others.

Look at cost/benefit ratios, especially for added rider insurance coverage and safe deposit box fees against biting the bullet & buying a true safe. Particularly if you possess, or your wife does, literally irreplaceable items.

900F
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