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Old March 11, 2014, 04:09 PM   #176
Spats McGee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spottedpony
. . . .Having years of law enforcement in my past, as well as a family member who before retirement, served as an assistant DA, we've discussed, hypotheticly, some of the scenerios posed here.

His concensus is that, (based on) individual responses here, as well as some posted photos, He would more than likely pursue criminal charges against the home defender, even though, they did in fact believe they were defending life and property.

The reason being, there was obviously premeditation about self defense, ammunition used with the intent of inflicting the most damage or death, as well as the design of a "specialty" weapon for this exact purpose.
As he puts it, there is a distinct difference between protecting ones home with grandpa's old (shotgun of choice) should a break in occur, the planning and practice some people practice. Therefore its a fine line between being prepared and being seen as an aggressor, and as he puts it, he could easily convince a jury that the shooter had in fact been planning for such an occasion and was looking forward to the opportunity to stop by any means, such an attack.
Balderdash.

Certainly there are jury-perception implications involved with the choice of HD weapon, but there's no reason to believe that either: (1) selecting a suitable HD weapon; or (2) practicing in order to be prepared, could be used to "easily" convince a jury that the HD shooter engaged in premeditation, or that the shooter was somehow the aggressor. Certainly, more proof would be needed than the 2 factors listed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottedpony
. . . . We also discussed what might be a reasonable (legally speaking) home defense shotgun and ammo, and agreed that the following would provide plenty of plausible deniability.
a midrange priced pump or autoloader, with a shorter 26 inch bbl and screw in chokes, using an improved cylinder tube. For ammo factory or handloaded 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 ounce of lead BB or BBB shot at nominal hunting velocities. (Since these loads could in fact be readily available as turkey loads it could be argued they were not designed primarily for self defense.)
The argument by a defense lawyer would of course be, that it was a shotgun designed for hunting as was the ammo thus at least while used as home protection that wasnt the prime goal.
Now these thoughts are from a couple of pro gun folks, just imagine what the anti gunners could do with it in court?
As mentioned above, there is some evidence to suggest that the choice of weapon influences jury perception. Juries are more accepting of "grandpa's shotgun" than they are of an AR-15. That said, my HD weapon is my HD weapon. I'm not interested in trying to trick the jury, and that's really what's being discussed here. If you're going to load GP's shotgun with turkey loads, and keep it as your home defense weapon, be prepared to explain to a jury why it was loaded at your bedside when: (1) it wasn't turkey season; and (2) there hadn't been any recent police reports of home-invading turkeys in your area.
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Old March 11, 2014, 04:22 PM   #177
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Its fairly obvious most reply's didnt "ACCURATELY" read my post as I referenced the assistant DA as retired, thus he has no political involvement OR agenda.
So, before jumping on the bandwagon crying foul, or the guy must have (what ever excuses were offered) read and read accurately. My comments about what was said simply reflect what he felt the law would require.

As for the grammer police comment, (no names mentioned) perhaps you should look at alot of spelling errors also, that should keep you quite busy.

To the majority who commented in the thread, I interpret from the most posts, based on the "the intruder is dead" sort of comments, that very few here have actually taken a life.
Speaking for myself, even though it relates to somewhere in southeast asia, i've taken a number myself. Who else can say that and if not, you have no idea of the actual effect it has on a person. To those of you who were there also, you know exactly what i'm saying.
Those experiences for me were 40 years ago and things happened i'll never forget.

Now realizing there may come a time when one may need to defend home and family, quit making light of it. I understand some feel the need to openly discuss the vagarities (theres one for the grammer cop) of various types of ammo, and get input from others. bottom line though, there is no absolute correct answer.

AND, its not a joke nor is it something anyone can say with 100% certainy they will perform flawlessly no matter what kind of training you've given yourself.
Its simply not the same as a real life danger scenerio where the adrenelin is pumping, your heart's pounding, and you're breathing at 3x your normal respiration rate.
Quit watching your favorite cop shows where 47 bad guys get wasted and your hero walks away from it laughing. This aint TV its potentially reality.
**************************************************************************
AS for Spats McGee's comment "(1) it wasn't turkey season; and (2) there hadn't been any recent police reports of home-invading turkeys in your area.) I can reply in kind with the question, why are you keeping a buckshot loaded shotgun next to your bed when (1) it wasn't buck season and (2) why havnt there been any police reports in your area regarding home invading bucks?

No one says that grandpas shotgun of choice has to be next to my bed, nor loaded. (true also with a "home defense gun" though others have indicated otherwise) it could easily be in the closet unloaded and ammo readily available.
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Old March 11, 2014, 04:32 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spottedpony
. . . . Speaking for myself, even though it relates to somewhere in southeast asia, i've taken a number myself. Who else can say that and if not, you have no idea of the actual effect it has on a person. To those of you who were there also, you know exactly what i'm saying.
Those experiences for me were 40 years ago and things happened i'll never forget.
I take this to mean that you've served in our military. While I thank you for your service, said service doesn't automatically impart a solid understanding of our legal justice system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottedpony
. . . .AS for Spats McGee's comment "(1) it wasn't turkey season; and (2) there hadn't been any recent police reports of home-invading turkeys in your area.) I can reply in kind with the question, why are you keeping a buckshot loaded shotgun next to your bed when (1) it wasn't buck season and (2) why havnt there been any police reports in your area regarding home invading bucks?

No one says that grandpas shotgun of choice has to be next to my bed, nor loaded. (true also with a "home defense gun" though others have indicated otherwise) it could easily be in the closet unloaded and ammo readily available.
As for my HD, there really isn't anything to explain. I have no intention of telling the jury anything other than the truth. I keep a HD weapon to stop a potential intruder. Keeping some other round because it seems "reasonable" when it isn't connected to any other activity in which I engage runs the risk of having the jury think that you're trying to fool them. Juries don't like that.

You certainly are welcome to store the shotgun and amm in whatever manner you choose. I don't see any reason to think that practicing, keeping it loaded at bedside, or choosing the most effective ammo for those purposes could lead a prosecutor to charge me with anything regarding premeditation.

FWIW, I'm not just pulling this out of my backside. As of September of this year, I will have spent 12 years as a litigation attorney.
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Old March 12, 2014, 12:21 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spottedpony
The reason being, there was obviously premeditation about self defense, ammunition used with the intent of inflicting the most damage or death, as well as the design of a "specialty" weapon for this exact purpose.
Tell me, which state has self defense law that even mentions lack of premeditation as one of the elements of self-defense? Where did this person practice law?
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Old March 21, 2014, 09:57 PM   #180
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You KNOW...these gotta hurt!

Dixie Tri-Ball (3”).

Three hardened Buckshot of 315 grains each.

That is a payload of just over two ounces of lead.

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Old March 21, 2014, 10:30 PM   #181
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How do those Tri-Balls pattern?
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Old March 21, 2014, 10:36 PM   #182
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I should be OK, grandpa's shotgun is locked up in the safe.
I wonder what the jury will say about the extended mag on my .40.
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Old March 21, 2014, 11:11 PM   #183
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Quote:
How do those Tri-Balls pattern?
Sam, I just got these in and have not yet had a chance to pattern them.

I will be shooting from an 18" Mossy with a cylinder bore....so I expect they will open up significantly much beyond 25 yds.

I will post my results here when I have shot some of them.
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Old August 5, 2014, 09:53 PM   #184
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If you're shooting at a burglar at 25 yards you will need a lawyer.
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Old August 5, 2014, 11:34 PM   #185
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The scenarios are just too many to make a blanket statement like the one above.
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Old August 5, 2014, 11:57 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dickydalton View Post
If you're shooting at a burglar at 25 yards you will need a lawyer.
You will probably need a lawyer if you shoot at a burglar at any yards.
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Old August 6, 2014, 01:35 AM   #187
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I think you hit that nail on the head, Cokeman. +1
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Old August 18, 2014, 03:28 AM   #188
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Remington Duplex 12-Ga rounds

Has anyone but me used these?

They come with OD green hulls and black bases a la military style.

Rumor has it they were designed for the tunnel rats in 'Nam.

They work OK, but I still keep the 590 full of 00 buck.

DG
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Old August 18, 2014, 10:19 AM   #189
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Sounds like a turkey load to me (i.e., one intended for hunting wild turkey) rather than a defensive load.

The oldest duplex load I know of used in anti-personnel mode in shotguns was the old 'jungle load' used by the British in Malaya back in the 1950s. It's been discussed here before... the combination of buckshot and smaller shot was supposed to be more likely to deliver a wound in a fleeting encounter with guerrillas, and any torso wound in a jungle environment with austere or nonexistent medical care was likely to be fatal to the guerrilla who received it. At least that was the supposed logic as I understand it.

And that's a LONG way from stopping an intruder posthaste in a defensive scenario...
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Old August 24, 2014, 09:19 AM   #190
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Conelrad, I have a few boxes of the "military" buckshot in 00 and will put them through patterning, etc. Reading the fine print on the box shows that Winchester is the maker (or whoever Winchester actually is today...). If I were guessing, I'd say that they're just standard 00buck rounds in drab colors.. but I'll know after testing.

As far as tunnel rats go, pistols were their weapon -either a .22 (yep) or a 38 or 45. The effects of popping a 12 guage shotgun in a super restricted environment would probably do a fair amount of damage to the shooter. I'd expect serious vision impairment (short term) and serious hearing impairment (long term). In my short tour of that garden spot in 1971 I was never a combat type -just a pencil pusher. My Dad did two tours there (I was around 16 or 17 when he drew his first tour so I read everything that I could get my hands on about the conflict). Most of the stuff I read about the rats had them stripping down to hardly any gear other than a flashlight and a pistol. No, I never wanted to do anything like that -ever. My hats off to those young men!

Just re-read your post and realized you were talking about duplex loads - I've never seen any and know nothing about them...
sorry for the de-rail.
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Old September 9, 2014, 01:35 AM   #191
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I am wondering about using the Mossberg Slugster for an HD shotgun.

With the right ammo, it seems like it would deliver good terminal performance - like the Winchester 12ga Super-X slug, which only penetrates to around 14.50" and expansion to 1.24" in ballistic gel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKge3FF0Hx4

The Slugster is only $480 compared to the SPX which is $625
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Old September 9, 2014, 01:57 AM   #192
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IMO: A 12 ga slug is about as poor a choice a man could make for HD ammo.

14.5" is about 2 1/2 people stacked prison lover style.

You aren't hunting Grizzly Bears inside your home!

00 Buckshot is the choice made by LEO, good guys, and bad guys for about 200 years.

There is a very good reason for that.
First, it works.
Second, it won't shoot through the BG and kill grandma in her rocking chair two blocks away.

00 Buck will generally provide complete penetration, and the nine pellets will sometimes be found inside the off side of the BG's T-Shirt.

That is all you need, or want to happen.

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Old September 9, 2014, 02:27 AM   #193
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14" is considered excellent for a 9mm round or 45 ACP, I'm about 12" from front to back at the sternum, more than 14" at the belly.

On the issue of what size shot, The Firearms Tactical Institute report recommends #1

Quote:
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances.

A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
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Old September 9, 2014, 02:29 AM   #194
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I don't think people would load the Winchester Super X for protection from Grizzlies, the big criticism of it is that it hardly penetrates.
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Old September 10, 2014, 07:46 PM   #195
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IMO: A 12 ga slug is about as poor a choice a man could make for HD ammo.

I asked shotgun Yoda Louis Awerbuck once why he only used slugs in his defensive shotguns.

He explained that he wasn't smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of ammo...
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Old September 10, 2014, 09:11 PM   #196
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Quote:
First,some stuff to avoid.

Less lethal stuff like rubber buckshot or tear gas loads. It's regarded as Use of Deadly Force even when the police do it, and they do it when backed up by cops with real ammo in their firearms. That's in case L/L doesn't work.

There's a clue there. Use something more likely to STOP someone when that is desperately needed.

Also, avoid anything with a name like "Ultimate Deathmaster" or skulls on the box.

Don't laugh,it happens and PT Barnum was right, one IS born every minute.

Anything exotic like Dragon's Breath, bird bombs, buckshot strung together on a wire,etc.10 thin dimes would also be a bad idea. So would be reloads.

Any shooting, justified or not, will be scrutinized under a microscope by LE folks who are not necessarily your friends.
What if your 9 pellet 00 shells are marked "LAW ENFORCEMENT" and so are the boxes, and you are not L/E?
I don't think this ammo is illegal to possess but may be scrutinized under a self defense situation.
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Old September 10, 2014, 11:41 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit4Brains View Post
What if your 9 pellet 00 shells are marked "LAW ENFORCEMENT" and so are the boxes, and you are not L/E?
I don't think this ammo is illegal to possess but may be scrutinized under a self defense situation.
You bring up a good point.

But the fact of the matter is this: No matter WHAT ammo you use or what gun you use, if you are EVER involved in a shooting you need to simply resign yourself to the fact that absolutely EVERYTHING about the entire circumstance will be examined under a microscope...whether it goes to court or not.

EVERYTHING.

And if it DOES go to court...it won't matter what all these circumstances are, the prosecution will question everything about it.


For example, from the standpoint of the self-defense shooter, the biggest thing that can go for him/her is whatever the forensics can come up with (assuming there isn't some kind of really cool video evidence or something like that). Forensics will draw a picture. THIS is the biggest, and most logical, reason why reloads may not be the smartest thing in the world. Factory loads can be counted upon for reliable and repeatable forensics evidence to help paint a more accurate picture. Your handloads, however, cannot.
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Old September 11, 2014, 08:51 AM   #198
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Quote:
I don't think this ammo is illegal to possess but may be scrutinized under a self defense situation.
When they sell it at my local Academy Sports, I figure that I'm ok.
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Old September 11, 2014, 10:04 AM   #199
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I like Flight Control:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-...ol-1-buckshot/
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Old September 11, 2014, 11:56 AM   #200
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I think the benefits of flight control wads are lost in a home defense situation. Heck, that stuff stays inside the wad until after it has traveled a little ways right? Well if the buckshot-filled wad hits the target, wouldn't that equal one large hole?

Also using "law enforcement" marked ammo for self defense is NOT a bad idea. You could say "I wanted to use what the local police use for defense" and IMHO that would go over pretty well.
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