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Old April 27, 2014, 04:54 PM   #76
bds
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RECREM, sorry to hear about your situation and my sentiment is poor quality product/poor customer service for a new company won't allow them to grow, especially in a very competitive shooting/reloading industry. I do not work for EP Armory but hope they recognize the importance of product quality/customer service as key to the company's future.

But the focus of this thread is about the legality of 80% AR or other firearm platforms like 1911 blanks regardless whether they are made of steel, stainless steel, aluminum or other materials like polymer. Firearms over the decades have progressed from metal to polymer frames and why should the AR/1911 blanks be any different?

For decades, gunsmith students/gunsmiths and hobbyists have used AR/1911 blanks to learn their hobby/trade of gunsmithing and some eventually became successful gunsmiths who ended up starting companies. To me, polymer blanks are reflective of progression made by the firearms industry.
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Old April 27, 2014, 05:20 PM   #77
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RECREM, i'm sorry you got ripped off.

The NRA shoud not "bankroll" EP or any other company. That is not the purpose of the NRA.

EP sold sold those receivers after the BATFE declared them to be "firearms".

http://www.scribd.com/doc/217153992/...r-to-EP-Armory
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Old April 27, 2014, 05:38 PM   #78
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Looks like a sick setup!
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Old April 27, 2014, 06:14 PM   #79
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So would you agree that if EP Armory's 80% polymer AR blank did not have the different color/material "biscuit" and lacked the excess materials protruding out, it would be the same as the aluminum 80% AR blank?
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Old April 27, 2014, 07:01 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bds View Post
10/8/14 update from EP Armory's facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/eparmory?ref=stream


I think it's interesting to note that ATF demanded Ares Armor's 5000 customer list (ultimately getting a search warrant to get it) but DID NOT ask for EP Armory's customer list (and they are the manufacturer). Perhaps ATF's concern lies somewhere else than EP Armory's poly EP80 product?
To my understanding,E P Armory/E P lowers freely gave them (BATF) their records without a fight. We bought E P Armory/E P lowers polymer receivers in July 2013,October 2013 and January 2014. In 2013 they sold for $100 each and the "Blemished" sold for $35 each. If E P Armory/E P lowers made an honest good faith effort to work with their customers,this would have had a different outcome.

Last edited by RECREM; April 27, 2014 at 08:36 PM.
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Old April 27, 2014, 07:31 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RECREM
To my understanding,E P Armory/E P lowers freely gave them (BATF) there records without a fight.
From post #55 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...57#post9430457
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP Armory
No "customer list" was asked for so no customer list was provided.
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Old April 27, 2014, 07:48 PM   #82
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ATF searched EP Armory and home of Chris Cook on Friday, 3/7/14 - http://www.turnto23.com/news/local-n...nd-home-030714

"... ATF declined to comment on why the store was targeted or exactly what agents were looking for ... Cook said agents told him they were looking for illegal firearms ... The ATF did not prohibit EP Armory from reopening and they did so around 5:30 p.m. Friday."
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Old April 27, 2014, 11:31 PM   #83
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Letter on E P Armory's website mentions this....",that these investigations should be concluded,and the seized records and property returned." www.eparmory.com/Current-News-s/1845.htm.
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Old April 27, 2014, 11:47 PM   #84
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This was posted on 4/26/14 - https://www.facebook.com/eparmory/po...tal_comments=1
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP Armory
We currently have received all of our computers and such back which was a couple of weeks back.
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Old April 28, 2014, 01:54 AM   #85
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Problem: E P Armory drilled out the trigger pocket and filled it back in with product. Drilling out that trigger is a "No Can Do" with BATF.
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Old April 28, 2014, 02:04 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alsaqr View Post
RECREM, i'm sorry you got ripped off.

The NRA shoud not "bankroll" EP or any other company. That is not the purpose of the NRA.

EP sold sold those receivers after the BATFE declared them to be "firearms".

http://www.scribd.com/doc/217153992/...r-to-EP-Armory
True.
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Old April 28, 2014, 02:08 AM   #87
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Great words

I like this forum,you guys encouraging words lift me up. Thank you very much.
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Old April 28, 2014, 03:14 AM   #88
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Welcome to THR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RECREM
E P Armory drilled out the trigger pocket and filled it back in with product. Drilling out that trigger is a "No Can Do" with BATF.
The manufacturing process has already been discussed at length in another thread. Since there may be a disagreement/confusion as to how they are manufactured, I think EP Armory and lawyers at Michel & Associates are electing for the judge to decide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP Armory
Next step is to get before a judge and make our case of what is and what is not a firearm. It will all come out we hope in the next few weeks
Quote:
Originally Posted by RECREM
We bought twelve (12) E P Armory lower receivers ... We bought ... E P Armory/E P lowers polymer receivers in July 2013,October 2013 and January 2014 ... Best part,I did not drill any of them yet.
Hmmmm, who are "We"? And why did you keep buying more even though you found out they did not fit the uppers you had? You posted that you did not drill any one of 12 lowers you bought yet you post a definitive statement that EP Armory drilled out the trigger pocket and filled it back in. Your new THR account only shows 6 posts all for this thread. Who knows, you could be an ATF agent posting as a new THR member. Who knows, I could be wrong.

At this point, speculative discussions not based on facts won't change anything. I may not post back until the judge hears the case as it looks like that's what's going to happen next. If you want to discuss product quality/customer service issues, you can start a new thread as this thread is focused on the legalities of polymer AR blanks.
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Last edited by bds; April 28, 2014 at 03:30 AM.
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Old May 8, 2014, 09:32 PM   #89
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From EP Armory's Facebook page 5/6/14 - https://www.facebook.com/eparmory/posts/630538383696765
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP Armory
... As soon as we have another information release that is going to have some more positive information you will find it here as well as on the main E P Armory website ...

As stated before the ATF have not asked for customers to destroy or return the EP80. If that is ever the case we will will notify publicly. All that is going on currently is the litigation via attorneys of why these have been confiscated since they follow every prior approved determination.
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Old May 8, 2014, 11:48 PM   #90
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"As stated before the ATF have not asked for customers to destroy or return the EP80"

They've effectively shut down two businesses, had owners in hand cuffs, executed raids/warrants, seized customer records, and generally scared the crap out of everyone in on the 80%/gun-building racket...and they aren't serious enough to gather the 'illicit' items causing all the ruckus? What was the trouble with EP producing them if they aren't worth the trouble to confiscate or register? Only two possible explanations; fishing expedition meant to illegally rifle through otherwise proprietary private records and chill the gun building industry, or the ATF bit off more than they could chew on this one and are stalling in the hopes EP will relent and they won't have to go back on their word.

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Old May 9, 2014, 03:35 AM   #91
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^^^ or both.
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Old May 9, 2014, 09:30 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alsaqr
The NRA shoud not "bankroll" EP or any other company. That is not the purpose of the NRA.
NRA will support the fight for the defense of the Second Amendment even for individuals as they have in the past like the recent landmark Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals case where NRA supported the case of Peruta v. San Diego County, brought on behalf of the CRPA (California Rifle and Pistol Association) Foundation and five individuals who were denied carry licenses by the San Diego Sheriff. - http://www.nraila.org/legal/articles...in-public.aspx


Quote:
Originally Posted by barnbwt
ATF ... hopes EP will relent ...
EP Armory is represented by Michel & Associates who represents the NRA and the CRPA and I don't think EP Armory will relent - http://www.calgunlaws.com/about-michel-associates/
Quote:
Michel & Associates ... clients include the National Rifle Association of America, the California Rifle and Pistol Association, FFLGuard, gun manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers, and individual gun owners ... represented thousands of individuals and companies ... trial counsel in scores of jury trials, many of which were high-profile cases and attracted state and national media attention ... has litigated hundreds of firearms cases involving constitutional issues, including Second Amendment challenges, in both state and federal trial and appellate courts.

... the lawyers at Michel & Associates won the NRA sponsored lawsuit that struck down Proposition H, the San Francisco law that would have banned the civilian possession of handguns in the City. He also led the successful CRPA Foundation lawsuit that struck down Assembly Bill 962, an anti-gun politician’s attempt to severely restrict and require registration of all ammunition purchases. Mr. Michel also filed prestigious, influential, and unprecedented amicus briefs on behalf of dozens of California District Attorneys in both the 2008 District of Columbia v. Heller and the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago Supreme Court Second Amendment cases.
BTW, here are some Michel & Associates links:

Website - http://www.calgunlaws.com/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/MichelLawyers
Twitter - https://twitter.com/MichelLawyers
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Old May 14, 2014, 10:26 PM   #93
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5/14/14 Update from EP Armory's Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/eparmory/posts/634408316643105
Quote:
So what's the verdict on the 80% lowers? Is the customer data base safe or did they take it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by E P Armory
The EP80's is still in limbo currently. The owner along with the group of attorneys are working on getting this all taken care as quickly as possible. We understand a lot of folks are worried about the outcome of the final hearing once this is brought before a court. As far as we are concerned as well as the attorneys we feel...once this is brought to a court we should be back in business. The owner has made a statement that if the EP80 is deemed illegal (which in a court of law it has not) and a recall must be issued he will notify publicly. Currently the ATF has not issued a recall or asked directly for a customer list. As far the ATF having possession of a customer list we can only make a comment to the effect that they did not ask for one so we did not hand over one. It is possible for them to have gone through the database we had in place to get one though.
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Old May 14, 2014, 11:11 PM   #94
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Well, this is interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bds
So if an 80% "poly AR blank" has the fire control area the same material without the excess material protruding out, ATF would consider it an AR-15 blank and not a firearm?

Then I guess the same jig used to complete a metal AR-15 blank could be used to finish the "poly AR blank" in the same fashion as finishing a "metal AR blank"?
Polymer80 Inc. (different company from EP Armory) did just that. They are accepting pre-orders for new poly AR blank with solid fire control cavity and includes a jig - http://www.polymer80.com/Polymer80-G...Kit_p_377.html
Quote:
Expected delivery begins on June 1st.
The Polymer80 80% Lower and Jig kit is available on back order now!

Be the first to receive the upcoming version of the G150 and Jig System together by prepaying now. You get a special 10% discount per unit already worked into the price above....once we start production shipping, discounts are ended!!

Features a solid core design, stiffened magwell and beefier buffer tube housing. The pistol grip area features a unique no-thread design specific to Polymer80 lowers.

The jig is included in this system and requires special tools, drill press and cross slide vice or milling machine to finish. The kit comes with drill bits and the end mill bit required. Instructions are online HERE.
Here's the link to step-by-step pdf - https://polymer80-com.3dcartstores.c...tructions1.pdf

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Old May 14, 2014, 11:52 PM   #95
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Here's another 80% poly AR lower by James Madison Tactical - http://www.jamesmadisontactical.com/...ower-receiver/

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Old May 15, 2014, 10:15 PM   #96
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Do those other polymer lower manufacturers have ATF determination letters that their products are not Firearms?
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Old May 16, 2014, 03:35 AM   #97
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They do not, however both companies have submitted for one.

Neither design has the features that got EP denied, and neither company has advertised that you can complete one without a jig. We shall see if that ends up being enough.

I have one of each of the above lowers (JMT and Polymer80) on my workbench waiting for me to have the time to finish them.
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Old May 16, 2014, 07:13 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docsleepy
Do those other polymer lower manufacturers have ATF determination letters that their products are not Firearms?
This is from JMT website - http://www.jamesmadisontactical.com/
Quote:
Dear JMT Customer,

With the additional scrutiny placed on the 80% marketplace due to current events JMT wants you to know we designed from the beginning our lower receiver blank to conform with the FTB (Firearms Technology Branch) and ATF guidelines. JMT is being proactive and has submitted to the FTB our blank for the determination letter.

Scott Hanchette
James Madison Tactical, llc
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Old May 16, 2014, 07:50 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bds
focus of this thread is about the legality of 80% AR or other firearm platforms like 1911 blanks regardless whether they are made of steel, stainless steel, aluminum or other materials like polymer.
For many decades, ATF has determined various AR and 1911 blanks to be not firearms.

Both JMT and Polymer80 (G150) reflect the same features found on "metal" AR blanks already determined by ATF to be not firearms.
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Old May 16, 2014, 08:40 AM   #100
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"They do not, however both companies have submitted for one."
And what do you know, companies that are indisputably not making firearms are now subjecting themselves to ATF scrutiny out of fear of unjustified raids --mission accomplished

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