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Old June 21, 2014, 06:57 PM   #1
chopinbloc
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Gelatin test: 10mm Double Tap 165 gr Golden Saber and 195 gr Mihec cast hand load

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojQG4tZCiFE

10mm Double Tap 165 gr Golden Saber fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin. I forgot the denim on this test. Sorry. Penetration with denim is typically slightly greater than without. The Golden Saber is not known for having trouble expanding after passing through heavy clothing and the additional velocity of the 10mm further encourages expansion.

BB calibration: 598.5 fps, 3.0"

Impact velocity: 1,298 fps
Penetration: 13.7"
Retained weight: 139.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.783"
Min Expansion: 0.517"

One extra shot over the chronograph measured 1,286 fps.

As reflected in the retained weight, there was substantial fragmentation and although the jacket and core were not detached from each other, the only thing holding them together was the gelatin itself. The jacket pulled away from the core as I removed them from the gelatin. The two fragments seen in the pic were recovered immediately next to the bullet so they were included in the retained weight figure.

I added another shot that I haven't done on previous tests. It shows the split wound track, side by side, with the bullet in place at the end. This exaggerates the appearance of the wound but gives a better view of where the fragments were lost along the track. Let me know what you think so I know whether to include that shot in future videos.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqeGhBnuGdU

10mm 195 gr Mihec (shallow pin) over 8.0 gr 800X fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin. I omitted the denim because this is intended as a woods load.

BB calibration: 598.5 fps, 3.0"

Impact velocity: 1,166 fps
Penetration: 14.1"
Retained weight: 196.8 gr
Max expansion: 0.698"
Min expansion: 0.657"

Additional velocity numbers are:

1,141 fps
1,119 fps
1,148 fps
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Last edited by chopinbloc; June 22, 2014 at 01:01 PM.
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Old June 21, 2014, 07:28 PM   #2
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Fascinating stuff!

Thanks!
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Old June 22, 2014, 08:07 AM   #3
357 Terms
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Quote:
10mm 195 gr Mihec (shallow pin) over 80 gr 800X fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin. I omitted the denim because this is intended as a woods load.
might want to edit the 80grn part.

That does seem like a better 10mm load than most factory stuff.

I think I would be more inclined to use that 195grn load for SD, at least over any bullet in 10mm designed to be shot at .40 velocities.
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Old June 22, 2014, 01:03 PM   #4
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Derp. Yeah. Fixed it. I'd like to see someone try to jam 80 grains of any powder in a 10mm case, though.
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Old June 22, 2014, 03:01 PM   #5
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Derp. Yeah. Fixed it. I'd like to see someone try to jam 80 grains of any powder in a 10mm case, though.
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LOL, yeah, they would figure out pretty quick it was a typo.

Great test, really interesting 195grn load.

Soft alloy? hard?

Last edited by 357 Terms; June 22, 2014 at 03:10 PM.
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Old June 22, 2014, 03:31 PM   #6
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Sorry. It was 20:1 tin to lead, no antimony. Cast by a friend.
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Old June 23, 2014, 12:41 AM   #7
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I am surprised the 165g was not going faster than 1300 fps.

How are you liking that 800x? I started using it a few months back and have had good results as long as I throw the charges with a chargemaster or trickle them.

Nice work though. Always like to see 10mm gel shots!
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Old June 23, 2014, 01:05 AM   #8
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Double Tap is well known for lying about velocity so I'm not surprised.

I love the performance I get from 800X but as you mentioned, it meters like corn flakes. I trickle each charge, which is really tedious. Fine for small quantities of defense or hunting ammo but I like AA9 or AA7 for range ammo.
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Old June 23, 2014, 09:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 357 Terms View Post
might want to edit the 80grn part.

That does seem like a better 10mm load than most factory stuff.

I think I would be more inclined to use that 195grn load for SD, at least over any bullet in 10mm designed to be shot at .40 velocities.
Your SD choice is poor. The best is load is equivalent to 185gr+P .45Auto load. The hot loads should be reserved for hunting or for trail gun where animals like wild boar or black bear can be encountered.
You're not alone many 10x25 owners think the same way sort of like 9x19 folks trying to milk out .40S&W performance out of that round.
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Old June 23, 2014, 10:39 AM   #10
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Wouldn't that then be equivalent to a .40?, if your gonna shoot a 10mm shoot a 10mm!!

Finding a 10mm hollow point that doesn't fragment at 10mm velocities is near impossible.



To add; I'm having trouble understanding how a load that penetrates 14 inches, expands to almost .70in (max) and retains all its weight would make a poor SD round.

Also, I would not consider the 10mm for hunting, much better choices, and it's not legal for deer in IN.

Last edited by 357 Terms; June 23, 2014 at 11:39 AM.
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Old June 23, 2014, 12:34 PM   #11
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He is likely referring to the fact that increased muzzle energy results in increased recoil, which results in increased split times. That is an immutable fact dictated by physics. Some folks will claim that they are really manly so they can still get "good" split times from nookular 10mm loads. They may be right but no matter how good you are, YOU will shoot faster with lower recoil. That said, one tenth second difference in split times might have a very low probability of making any practical difference in the number of holes in the bad guy. If you train with the ten, and develop good speed and accuracy, that is the important part.

On the other hand, the experts advise us that at handgun velocities, temporary cavity does not substantively contribute to wounding and therefore, higher energy levels don't really correspond to faster incapacitation. Incapacitation is the result of either damage to the central nervous system (virtually any projectile at virtually any velocity can result in instant incapacitation if it reaches the CNS) or hypovolemic shock (hydraulic leak). The bleeding is the result of the crush cavity, which is determined by the average diameter of the bullet and the depth of penetration.

On yet another hand, I suspect that higher velocity pistol cartridges > 1,300 fps might have a higher likelihood of causing a psychological stop. There is no disputing that full power .357 mag and 10mm create substantial temporary cavities. It is also fairly commonly agreed that .357 mag 125 gr Gold Dot and similar has really excellent real world performance. I suspect that large temporary cavity feels a lot like being punched. If a Golden Glove boxer were to punch you in the chest or belly, it's unlikely that it would cause any immediately life threatening injury. At the same time, it would probably take a little vinegar out of you as well.


That said, I carry my G23 or G22 almost exclusively and I keep them loaded with 180 gr Gold Dots. If I carry my 10mm in the city, I keep it loaded with 165 gr Gold Dots loaded to about 1,300 fps. In the woods, I carry 200 gr XTP loaded to about 1,150 fps. For the Mihec bullet, I plan to back off that charge by about half a grain and see what I get there. My ultimate goal is to get about 20" of penetration with very moderate expansion. We may have to go to 16:1 lead/tin to get there but once I get 20" or better of penetration combined with just a little expansion, that will be my woods load.
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Old June 23, 2014, 12:35 PM   #12
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Oh, and 357 Terms, I've done quite a few amateur tests of 10mm and found several JHPs that hold together. Check out my channel if you're interested. https://www.youtube.com/user/chopinbloc
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Old June 23, 2014, 01:07 PM   #13
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Glad to see mine is not the Only Witness that leaves drag marks on the primers.
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Old June 23, 2014, 10:40 PM   #14
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Love the test. Wished I had the means to make up enough of the gel to do my own testing. I have been working with the MP hollow points for a while now and get them to pretty much do what I want within reason.

As to the comment about the 10 not being a capable hunting caliber, I have to disagree. With decent loads it is quite capable of reliable taking deer and feral hogs. However like with any other firearm, the person who is using it is usually the weak link.

The 180gr GD at 1300'ish fps is a VERY reliable game stopper along with plenty of other good bullets.
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Old June 24, 2014, 01:25 AM   #15
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Who said 10mm was a poor choice for hunting?
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Old June 24, 2014, 05:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Also, I would not consider the 10mm for hunting, much better choices, and it's not legal for deer in IN.
Well I might have read it wrong.....


Still my 10 works well for me with the 180 GD's...
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Old June 24, 2014, 01:31 PM   #17
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LOL, yeah I missed that. I agree that with the right load 10mm and .357 mag can be outstanding hunting cartridges. As always, shot placement is the most important factor by a long shot.
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Old June 25, 2014, 10:53 AM   #18
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10mm and cast....
Right now my 10mm is the only handgun I don't cast for. I am however looking at picking up one of the NOE 403 200Gr. WFN RG4 cavity molds soon. I looked at the MP's pretty hard but wanted to have something a little different. I'm also hoping that I can get a set of cup point pins with the NOE so that I will have more options with my alloy.

You mentioned in your post that you were using 20-1 for the bullet in that video. You also mention it had no antimony. I have been using a base alloy which does contain antimony in a 1/3/96 ratio or there bouts. After playing with it I have found that by keeping the percentage of tin equal to antimony, that you can have a harder bullet which will still expand and is still very malleable having some of them roll back almost completely to the base.

My next batch will be testing some that is basically a 2/2/96 hoping that I can drive them into the full magnum velocities from my revolvers and still hold them together. If so that would allow me to run them slower and have more controlled expansion, like you mentioned, so that only the nose portion expands some but doesn't roll all the way back into a full blown mushroom.

Here is a post I made showing some of what I am referring to. If you scroll down there are several examples of my recovered bullets.
Cast HP's @1300fps....

I fully admit my test medium isn't gel for sure and certain, but it has for years done a decent job of representing similar findings to what my recovered bullets in deer or hogs have compared to.
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Old June 25, 2014, 11:57 AM   #19
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Thank you for posting that. Participative information sharing is one of the most powerful things we can do on this here interwebz.
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Old June 25, 2014, 11:00 PM   #20
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I'm a 10mm fanboy, ain't gonna lie. Love these kinds of vids. The XTP has been my favorite .400dia bullet thus far. I've done extensive redneck expansion/penetration testing with the bullet and have found it to be exceptional. I'm particularly fond of the 200gr version. I've ran it as slow as 850fps and got reliable expansion with roughly 11"of penetration and as hard as 1400+fps with major expansion (just shy of .800") without jacket separation. Penetration was 18+". I settled on a load pushing the 200gr XTP just shy of 1300fps on average for woods/hunting purposes. I'm reasonably accurate and comfortable with follow up shots with the load. My "plinking" load is a straight WW cast 175gr TL bullet (powder coated) running 1100ish fps. It bangs steel well. For carry it's the 180gr XTP averaging 1350ish fps. Blue Dot handles the hunting loads and Longshot is my preference for everything else. I'm considering adding an NOE HP mould to rotation though.
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Old June 25, 2014, 11:29 PM   #21
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Wow! How did you get 1,400 fps from a 200 gr bullet?

It's also worth noting that JHP typically penetrates LESS at higher velocity.
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