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Old June 29, 2014, 06:19 PM   #1
elephant_man
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Unknown toggle-link bolt found

So I saw this weird bolthead online and was compelled to buy it for some reason. I guess I was really curious. The guy said it was for a C-93 Borchardt but I knew it wasn't.

The case head marking diameter measures about .470" +/- .005, so I guess it was chambered in .45 acp or .308 or 8mm Mauser or something. There's no markings of any kind. The metal is nice, it looks well made. The extractor has no pins holding it in. It looks like its been used. There's also a circular mark right below where the case would sit.

Can anyone think of any other toggle-link action guns besides the Luger and Borchardt? Maybe something similar to the Winchester 1873, or maybe some kind of m1918 BAR-like weapon?
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Old June 30, 2014, 01:23 AM   #2
Edarnold
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The bolt face is the problem for a WAG. The Pedersen rifle was a toggle hesitation lock, but the caliber ( .276 Pedersen ) has a smaller casehead. The Swiss Furrer LMG used a sideways toggle-lock, but the casehead there is .500" . There was a gunsmith who made a limited number of Luger-pattern pistols in .45 ACP, but I'm sure he would have serial numbered the parts. Well, I'm out of ideas, which means someone else will come up with an answer that makes it perfectly obvious...
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Old June 30, 2014, 01:45 AM   #3
rcmodel
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Sure not me tonight!
I've not seen anything exactly quite like it that I can think of?

I thought at first maybe early Johnson rifle, or a Pederson design of some sort.

Also similar to a 1918 Browning BAR, and the bolt face measurement would be right.
But Noooo!!

Also similar to a Boscherdt, but not, and the bolt face is way too big.

.45 ACP Luger? 1 of a very few ever made?
Nope! Not even close. Or possible.

Got me stumped so far tonight!

rc
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Old June 30, 2014, 07:32 PM   #4
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I seem to recall a number of custom 45ACP Luger pattern customs being made, back in the day... Is the part correct for a P08 except for bolt face?
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Old June 30, 2014, 08:16 PM   #5
rcmodel
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Not really.

The P-08 bolt face has the extractor centered on the top of the bolt.
Not on the side.

Just not consistent with a Luger, or Borchardt either.

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...0borchardt.htm

Besides, there were never very many of those first U.S test .45 Lugers (2 I think).
One survives and has an estimated value of 1 million dollars.
And not very many of the hand built .45 ones were made more recently.
They are also selling for huge prices now.

Seems beyond belief anyone would have an extra bolt for one in a junk box, or for sale on- line.

It's just got me stumped!

rc
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Last edited by rcmodel; June 30, 2014 at 08:31 PM.
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Old June 30, 2014, 08:18 PM   #6
Edarnold
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OK, brain cells working a little better after sleep. The position of the extractor and ejector mean ejection is to the side. Major toggle lock actions are the Maxim and Vickers MGs, both were made in rimless .470 " case head calibers. Both are belt fed, so the open part of the bolt head in question would face up. This means ejection to the left. If either of these guns ejected to the left side, we have a viable candidate.
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Old June 30, 2014, 08:30 PM   #7
rcmodel
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IMO: Looks way too small for a .30 cal MG bolt!

It's only 1 3/4" long.
And appears way more pistolish to me.

Maxim bolt
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...=425116337#PIC

Vickers locking block
http://www.ima-usa.com/british-vicke...-gun-lock.html

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Last edited by rcmodel; June 30, 2014 at 08:41 PM.
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Old July 1, 2014, 09:46 PM   #8
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Both the Vickers and Maxim have a "feed-through" breechblock that this wouldn't fit in, but, considering that there would have to be a swinging toggle attached to the back of it, it's too large for any sort of handgun. I'd have to think it's from a rifle or machine gun, but nothing WW2 or later that I can think of works like that.
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Old July 2, 2014, 11:42 AM   #9
JT-AR-MG42
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My first thoughts were for a Swiss LMG also.

No luck here either with any references I can think of.

I did go through the listing of pistols submitted during the 1906-1919 U.S. Army's search for a new sidearm, because I thought it might have come from a Grant-Hammond or High Standard.
Wrong again.

I can only suggest getting in contact with these guys.

http://www.forgottenweapons.com

Maybe one of their members might know.

Please let us here back on this forum when you get a good answer.

If I had seen something like that in a parts box, I would have bought it too!

JT
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