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Old July 8, 2014, 01:16 AM   #1
rodwha
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What Happens?

I'm a bit curious as to what happens when a legal CCW person violates a restaurant that wants no weapons in their store in a city/state that allows CCW.

If something were to happen in their parking lot or even store and a person were to defend themselves with their weapon is there recourse?

Who are they to say I cannot take measures to defend myself when they offer nothing in terms of protection?
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Old July 8, 2014, 01:25 AM   #2
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Generally, if it's concealed, they won't know about it to complain. During my CCW class the lawyer giving the legal portion of the class said that if the property owner knows you have a weapon they can ask or tell you to leave the premises. If you do not immediately leave they can have you arrested for trespassing, and if you make a scene or become argumentative, you can be arrested for disorderly conduct.

And do not EVER threaten a property owner over his right to order you to leave his property.
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Old July 8, 2014, 01:26 AM   #3
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I would think that if a situation came up where you actually HAD to use your gun in such a situation, the repercussions after the fact would be the least of your problems. Sort of like my wife's concern that if I got a concealed carry permit and ever shot someone with it we could be sued or end up broke with legal fees after it was all over. My thought is that being broke is better than being dead any day and the only way I would ever shoot someone was if I was certain I would be dead if I didn't.
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Old July 8, 2014, 01:41 AM   #4
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I get that there are people who don't want this sort of thing around, and I strongly disagree with those who want to allow carry in bars, but if it's a right in a state it seems you ought to have to provide security if it's not allowed.

I'm just curious if there are repercussions from the owner if you had to use yours in his/hers area.

I was reading about Bloomberg and his rallying a few places to not allow guns in their stores and wondered. It's not a bank or a government building...
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Old July 8, 2014, 02:15 AM   #5
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Quote:
I'm a bit curious as to what happens when a legal CCW person violates a restaurant that wants no weapons in their store in a city/state that allows CCW.
Here in Texas, where you and I live, if they are properly posted and you are caught, you are committing a class A misdemeanor. Well one would be committing the crime whether one is caught or not, but you know what I mean. Last I checked, and it's been a bit, possible fine up to $4000 and/or up to a year in jail. Also, being convicted of a class A misdemeanor disqualifies one from having a CHL for five years.

Quote:
If something were to happen in their parking lot or even store and a person were to defend themselves with their weapon is there recourse?
Don't know exactly, don't care to find out. Seems like it is entirely possible you could still be charged with trespass by a holder of license to carry concealed handgun.

Quote:
Who are they to say I cannot take measures to defend myself when they offer nothing in terms of protection?
They own/control the property/business. They can absolutely tell you you can't carry there.

Quote:
...but if it's a right in a state it seems you ought to have to provide security if it's not allowed.
No one is forcing us to go there or do business with them. Property owners have rights as well, just because a business generally allows the public in to do business, it's still private property and you can be asked to leave and even barred from the premises for any number of reasons. Not allowing for discriminatory practices, though that is outside the scope of this discussion. The Supreme Court has determined that the police don't even have a duty to protect us, so forcing a business owner/manager to do it seems unlikely.

Sadly, the fact that we are forced to obtain a license in order to carry in public would seem to indicate that the state sees it as more of a privilege than a right, in spite of what it says in the Constitution.
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Old July 8, 2014, 02:36 AM   #6
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Depends on whether "no guns" policies carry weight of law in your state. Here, they do not. If you are caught carrying, they can ask you to leave, and if you do not, it's criminal trespass. But after-the-fact of having to use the weapon they never knew about? All that company could do is eighty-six you from then on.

Quote:
I strongly disagree with those who want to allow carry in bars
Why? Just because one is in a bar does not mean one is intoxicated. AFAIK, it is unlawful in all 50 states to carry drunk anyway.

Perfectly legal to CCW in a bar here in CO, and I have yet to learn of a bar shooting involving a permit holder. We've been shall issue for 11 years, and most counties were pretty liberal with handing out permits when it was may issue.

Quote:
Who are they to say I cannot take measures to defend myself when they offer nothing in terms of protection?
I'll ask you this, though; Why would you want to give money to an anti-gun business?

Having said that, there are times when you just gotta patronize such places. The museum and zoo here are such cases, as I have young children and will not forsake them the experiences I so enjoyed at their age just because these companies have adopted a policy I disagree with. That is not to say I disarm, though; concealed means concealed, and I do not feel that an open-to-the-public business has a right to dictate what legal possessions you may have on your person, unless that object directly interferes with their ability to run the business and make money. When you run a business that is open to the public, you give up certain property rights that exist on truly private property. I'm telling you this as a business owner who acknowledges that I cannot dictate certain things on the public side of my business; I don't approve of drugs, but pot is legal here now, so I really don't have the right to tell someone they can't have it on the premises. I can say they may not smoke it, but possessing is another matter. Likewise, their mere possession of the drug does not negatively impact my business, so what does it matter? As it relates to firearms, I do not support any business saying "no guns", but understand and respect companies that have adopted a "no open carry" policy.
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Old July 8, 2014, 07:17 PM   #7
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Who are they? They're the property owner and you're there of your volition and the conditions they set. Don't like it, don't go.

You would get nothing from any court if you claimed they'd denied you the ability to defend yourself since they can't be liable for the acts of a criminal (think about banks and the fact that the customers have no recourse against them if a criminal acts). Same goes for the property outside since they're not responsible for the safety of customers unless they take on that responsibility.

OTOH, if a smart CCW holder conceals their defensive firearm so you don't have to face this question unless some miscreant forces you to use your sidearm to defend yourself. In those circumstances I'd worry less about the business than the customers and employees unless you stopped the bad guy with one shot before he could hurt anyone (and still someone might sue you for emotional damage).
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Old July 8, 2014, 07:31 PM   #8
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As others said, it depends a great deal on what state you're in at the time.

In some states, a business' statement or sign saying "no guns" means that if you carry there you are already violating the law.

In other states, a business has to post a very specific sign (TX has the "30.06" sign) and THEN you'd be violating the law if you carry there, but otherwise you'd be perfectly fine. (Other signs would be just for show, with no weight behind them.)

In many other states, there is no legal weight given to a sign posted by a business prohibiting guns. So carrying there is lawful.

In ANY state, if a representative of the business sees that you have a gun and asks you to leave, you must do so immediately. If you do not, you are trespassing and that is a crime with serious penalties. After they ask you and you refuse, they can call the cops and have you arrested. You should never allow things to get to that point. If seen and notified, comply and leave.

......

Regarding what happens if you have to USE the gun?

In most states the way a self-defense case works is that you are making an "affirmative defense." You're charged with shooting (assault with a deadly weapon) or killing (manslaughter/murder) someone. You make your case, NOT as "innocent until proven guilty," but as "YES, I did it, and here is the reason I had to do that..." You're admitting to the law violation (shooting or killing someone) and then claiming that you qualify to have that guilt set aside because your circumstances met the legal requirement for self defense in that state.

So, you killed someone, you shot someone, you discharged a weapon in the limits of a town or city, you threatened someone (a kind of assault), you brandished your gun (another kind of assault), you punched, kicked, bit, etc, etc, another person. Those are all crimes, and you're going to make your plea that you did commit them but you had to or you would have been killed in the next moment by the deceased. In light of all that, the fact that you were violating a store's policy, or even that you might have been violating a misdemeanor carry law provision, probably won't even be mentioned in the charges.

If you're found not guilty by reason of sustaining your self defense case, all those more minor crimes are (generally) dismissed. If you're found GUILTY, because you shot someone in circumstances the law doesn't recognize as sufficient to sustain a self-defense claim, well, you've got bigger problems.
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Old July 8, 2014, 07:34 PM   #9
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Depends on the state. In Texas, where you live, if it's properly posted it's a criminal act to do it.

Who are they to say?

First of all, the Texas law gives them the lawful right to make that decision. Secondly, it's not your property. It's not your business. It's theirs. They have both statutory right given to them by Texas, and a common law right to determine what they will and will not permit on their property.


If you don't like it, tell management and tell them politely why you won't give them your business.
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Old July 8, 2014, 07:40 PM   #10
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In Missouri with the exception of bars that derive more than 50% of revenue all that happens if they find out is you will get asked to leave. If you refuse you get a trespassing charge which will result in a small fine, and possible short suspension of your permit.

In other states like others have said it can be a bigger issue.
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Old July 8, 2014, 08:17 PM   #11
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Post #5 contains a lot wisdom and take home lessons.
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Old July 8, 2014, 08:32 PM   #12
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Texas law is quite specific about where you can or cannot carry, as to private businesses.

If there is a "30.06" sign, it is a misdemeanor to carry past that sign. The law specifies the size of the lettering on the sign.

If there is a "51%" sign in a place which serves alcohol, it means that over 50% of the income is from alcohol and you cannot--by law--carry in such a place.

No other sign has the force of law. However, any business owner or manager has the right to ask that you leave if they find that you are armed and it is against their policy.

The typical business is not obligated to provide security for anybody. I'm not talking about such as hotels/motels. Stores, restaurants and suchlike.
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Old July 8, 2014, 09:11 PM   #13
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i just dont carry into a biz that dont want me. my home cooked delicious dinners are way more better.since i live way out in the country i rarely go into town to any of these busnizzes
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Old July 9, 2014, 12:39 AM   #14
Art Eatman
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rodwha, the May/June issue of the Texas State Rifle Association's "TSRA Sportsman" has excellent coverage of your exact question, as well as an exposition on the "Stand Your Ground" law and "Castle Doctrine".

www.tsra.com

Membership is very much worthwhile, for folks in Texas.
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Old July 9, 2014, 02:48 AM   #15
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Each state is different in this respect I think, but here in Az. the property owner can't control what is in your car, providing the car is locked, and the firearm is out of sight. Beyond that, self defense, is self defense here, and we have the legal right to defend our self, private property or not.

Now there may be civil repercussions to deal with, but not much to worry about criminally speaking. I've heard of a couple cases in which an employee defended their self with a firearm and was fired from their job for doing so, and for bringing a firearm into the work place, but nothing criminal applied.

Federal "gun free" zones are another story altogether though.

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Old July 9, 2014, 01:44 PM   #16
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What are the ramifications behind the opposite situation? For example, a licensed CCW customer is attacked/injured/killed on the business' premises and is unable to effectively defend themselves as they had complied with business' order to not carry there?
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Old July 9, 2014, 02:07 PM   #17
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on an island

The same as if you sue the police [ been done ] for failure to protect you.

Federal courts rules that you have NO right to protection .

Yes,it sounds like common sense that since it says "TO PROTECT & SERVE" on the patrol car,that should be the law ---- BUT no that's not the case.

SO,if you obey the signage and go unarmed and then are attacked - Up the creek , --- sound like a term you understand ?.

CONCEALED CARRY means different things to different parts of the nation,in my state it means that NO ONE can see that you are armed.

That being the case ,it poses the question that is famous as a bumper sticker = "DO YOU WANT TO BE TRIED BY 12,OR CARRIED BY 6 ".

Well do ya ?.
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Old July 9, 2014, 02:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
What are the ramifications behind the opposite situation? For example, a licensed CCW customer is attacked/injured/killed on the business' premises and is unable to effectively defend themselves as they had complied with business' order to not carry there?
I am not a lawyer, and I am simply speculating here, but I can't imagine it would be much difference than if you slipped on a wet floor and injured yourself. It would likely be a civil matter.

Again, speculating heavily, but I don't think it would even hold as much weight as that instance. While some sort of gross negligence on the part of the business resulting in injury has been done, I don't know of a precedent wherein the actions of a third party places responsibility on the business. At least in this type situation. I could very well be wrong on this, and heartily invite anyone who has other information to bring it on up for further discussion.

As I stated before, in the eyes of the state at least, CCW is considered a privilege. It doesn't endow us with any special protection under the law other than allowing us to go armed in public. In Texas at least, the rights of property/business owners are going to trump a "privilege."

In the end, you can sue anyone for anything. Whether it goes anywhere is another issue entirely.
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Old July 9, 2014, 02:31 PM   #19
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scaatylobo, I know the answer to that question as far as I'm concerned. I was asking more from curiosity towards the law(s).
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Old July 9, 2014, 02:43 PM   #20
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That's a question that gets batted around here quite a lot, and the overwhelming answer is "not a darned thing."

Suing the company because you got shot by some criminal breaking both the law and their company policies as well is hardly going to go anywhere. Suing them because you maybe could have perhaps protected yourself if you didn't feel so compelled to follow their stated policies is going to be a non-starter.

If nothing else, the store didn't MAKE you come shop there. You were there of your own free will, including knowledge and practical acceptance of that policy.

The most realistic answer to the popular suggestion that one could sue a company for not protecting them and not allowing them the means to protect themselves is, "Yeeeah...good luck with that."
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Old July 9, 2014, 03:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slumlord44 View Post
I would think that if a situation came up where you actually HAD to use your gun in such a situation, the repercussions after the fact would be the least of your problems.

This could relate directly to the eventual outcome of the incident. If you draw your weapon either to protect yourself and/or someone else(your friend sitting next to you, the cashier, etc.) and they or other innocent bystanders are hurt or killed because it was found your actions contributed, you could be in deep do-do while being barefoot, and the outcome can be worse than if you left your gun in the parking lot. While we all like to envision that any time we draw our CWC, the BG will be dead and we will be the hero, we need to realize that drawing our weapon may prompt the BG to use his firearm when otherwise he would not have, or that misses or over penetration by our own firearm may lead to innocent folks being injured. Both scenarios are why many establishments post "no weapons" signs. It not just because they think we are going to have a ND/AD.

Around here, if you enter a "no firearms" business(other than a government building or school) and are found out, you will be asked to leave. Not a big deal. If you do not leave when asked, you can be charged with trespassing. Escalation of the situation can lead to other charges and may mean you can lose the legal right to CWC. You, as a gun owner with a right and/or license to carry CWC, need to know the laws in the state or locale where you are carrying, because they differ so greatly. This is your responsibility. It is also your responsibility to know and accept the ramifications of any and all of the scenarios in which you may have to draw your weapon. If you are not prepared to do this, you should not be carrying.
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Old July 9, 2014, 10:45 PM   #22
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I fully understand like your answer !!!.
:-)
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodwha
'm a bit curious as to what happens when a legal CCW person violates a restaurant that wants no weapons in their store in a city/state that allows CCW.

If something were to happen in their parking lot or even store and a person were to defend themselves with their weapon is there recourse?

Who are they to say I cannot take measures to defend myself when they offer nothing in terms of protection?
Here in Texas, the business establishment MUST have proper legal (per para. 30.06) signage posted conspicuously at the entrance in order for them to declare themselves as "gun free." As I understand it, this would apply only to the interior of the establishment, not the parking area.
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Old July 11, 2014, 12:03 PM   #24
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Quote:
Here in Texas, the business establishment MUST have proper legal (per para. 30.06) signage posted conspicuously at the entrance in order for them to declare themselves as "gun free." As I understand it, this would apply only to the interior of the establishment, not the parking area.
Just as a point of order, however, trespassing laws would still apply -- meaning that if they ask you to leave, it doesn't matter that they didn't have a 30.06 sign up. You've still got to go.
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Old July 11, 2014, 12:39 PM   #25
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Lethal force incidents.....

If you have a lethal force event in a restaurant, movie theater, library, public office; Id doubt you'd be in hot water unless the local DA/AUSA/State Atty's Office feels your actions/statements were criminal or unlawful.
The recent lethal force shooting in metro Tampa Florida is a good example. A retired sworn LE officer(SWAT trained captain) reportedly shot & killed a movie theater patron after a dispute over texting.
The media said NO FIREARMS signs were posted in the lobby area but the retired cop had a .380acp pistol.
He's now facing several charges & may try to use Florida's Stand Your Ground statue claiming the victim threw popcorn at him & started a fight.

As noted, if a business owner or manager sees your weapon & asks you leave, then leave. Don't be a jerk or flare up.
Doing security work, I've had many people trespassed or cited. 90% of the time, it was patrons or customers who flew off the handle or became aggressive over some minor issue.
Some places are very strict like US post offices, hospitals-medical centers, airports/air hangers, power plants. Carrying concealed weapons there might be a big problem.
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