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Old July 17, 2014, 11:34 AM   #26
JColdIron
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I've driven through that area and it is a mess. I could see her taking a wrong turn from Philly and ending up there. Not a lot of signage.

That said I think that States with specific restrictions on the 2nd ammd should have to list them at the border like they do withlights on when raining, No turn on Red or No Radar detectors.

If it saves one child...
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Old July 17, 2014, 12:01 PM   #27
medalguy
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Letís see, New Jersey Ė Mexico. Not a whole lot of difference, is there?

Heck yes. You can get a decent taco in Mexico.
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Old July 17, 2014, 12:07 PM   #28
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Letís see, New Jersey Ė Mexico. Not a whole lot of difference, is there?
Mexico has better beaches and MUCH better winters.

Too many police states in the northeast. I like it here in the southwest.
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Old July 17, 2014, 12:53 PM   #29
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Post #14.....

Post 14 isn't a answer. It's a deflection.
A mature adult would answer the questions & explain how this woman's race/gender/background make her the "perfect" case.

As stated she apparently had no clear understanding of the gun/carry laws & made bad decisions.
I stand by my statements.
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Old July 17, 2014, 01:10 PM   #30
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Her race, gender & background might garner some sympathy that the stereotypical nra redneck would not.
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Old July 17, 2014, 01:19 PM   #31
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As long as states have open borders, there needs to be uniformity and/or exemptions for non-residents to a certain degree. That was the purpose of preemption here in CO (and many other states). I strongly believe in states rights, but it gets a little more complicated when talking traveling residents of other states, since all borders are completely open. Anyone here ever seen a marquis detailing certain state regulations that are atypical when crossing the border? I haven't, and I've been through 33 states by car.
Good point.

The states should be able to restrict their citizens all they want when it comes to gun (people) control but a person traveling through who isn't a resident of that state should not be subject to those laws. Even a person carrying a restricted weapon like an AR or a 30r mag should be exempt for a brief period, say 24 hours. Police should inform the person of the state law, their window of exemption and the fact that they are being monitored for violation of the exemption. They could even be issued a conditional citation. A ruling by the US district or supreme court could in effect provide the basis for a defense against over aggressive LEO's and prosecutors in these situations and insure that citizens who are compliant with fed law and their state laws could travel without being arrested. A lot of resources and tax dollars are being wasted by prosecution when a citation would cover it.

The problem is so bad that someone is even selling insurance to provide you with an on the spot legal defense against it.

Last edited by CoalTrain49; July 17, 2014 at 01:25 PM.
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Old July 17, 2014, 01:20 PM   #32
230RN
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Out of curiosity, is there an intent clause in any of the laws she's charged with breaking?

ETA: Later posts describing her route invalidated any claim as to "intent." Thanks.
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Old July 17, 2014, 01:24 PM   #33
Onward Allusion
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H.m.B
<SNIP>As a responsible gun owner, you gotta know the rules.
I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you'd violated a law in the last week.
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Old July 17, 2014, 01:29 PM   #34
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Any of us could violate the rules without realizing it.

How many here have driven to another state while armed with their carry permit and drove within 1000 feet of a school?
.
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Old July 17, 2014, 01:49 PM   #35
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Any of us could violate the rules without realizing it.
Seen it many times by people who would be the first to obey the rules if they just knew what they were. I won't go into it at depth but try reading all of the fish and game laws of the state of WA. If there were a test 75%, including me, couldn't pass it. When I see a game warden my anal sphinter muscles tighten up. Just an example.

Last edited by CoalTrain49; July 17, 2014 at 02:03 PM.
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Old July 17, 2014, 02:33 PM   #36
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When I first heard of this, my first thought was that this could be THE CASE to take to court. A single mother, two kids, fine upstanding citizen - I say go for it!

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Old July 17, 2014, 02:46 PM   #37
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Her best chance in my opinion is her day in court before a jury pleading for jury nullification. A good prosecutor will move to limit the arguments of the defense via a Motion In Limine to try and head this off.

A good candidate would be one who hasn't committed any crime and is seeking to have their rights protected (i.e. Heller in Heller v. D.C.). This woman is in for a world of hurt and I don't think it will end well for her.

I'm glad I don't live in the N.E., I'm sure New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Maine are great places, but they are too close to those whacko states for my tastes.
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The sooner we go Neville Chamberlain on this the sooner they'll go Adolf Hitler on something else. Compromise buys us nothing but emboldened enemies. Let them come, let us politic, let us see the wolves in sheep's clothing so we know who not to vote for.

Every penny they pour into the fight is one they will likely have to match. The fiercer our resolve the more likely they'll look for something else easier to desecrate the Constitution about. And should they turn their backs, we should strike for more restoration of the 2nd Amendment.
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Old July 17, 2014, 02:48 PM   #38
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If you haven't driven in the hell hole called New Jersey, you have no friggin' clue what a mess it is. Once you get on some of the roads, it's impossible to get off for a while.
That's true of many urban areas. Of course, it obviously has nothing to do with this particular case. The lady was trying to go to Atlantic City (wait for it) New Jersey. The "mistakenly" referred to bringing her gun along, not to how she ended up in New Jersey (although one could argue that going to Jersey is always a mistake, but I do not think her defense will be based on this). Also hard to make the argument that she was "just passing through" as it's very difficult to continue a trip by automobile as one proceeds eastward from Atlantic City. For the geographically challenged, let's just say that the legendary humidity gets much worse as one crosses the "beach".

Quote:
....uhhh, she didn't intend to go to Jersey.
Excellent defense, except for the fact that, well, yes, she did fully intend to go to Atlantic City, NJ (where the "J" stands for "Jersey").

Quote:
(Re: the proposed "couldn't get off the interstate" scenario) ...I suspect that was what the illegal change thing was about.
That would be news to the lady in question. She is claiming she swerved because she was sleepy/tired at 1 in the morning.

I agree that she might make a good test case, but let's not let a good justification get in the way of the actual facts (or at least her version of the facts).
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Old July 17, 2014, 03:52 PM   #39
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Atlantic county ain't exactly on the PA border; I don't think mistakenly entered the state is accurate at all.
You bring up a good point.

Quote:
When I first heard of this, my first thought was that this could be THE CASE to take to court. A single mother, two kids, fine upstanding citizen - I say go for it!
You might think so if she was actually caught driving somewhere NEAR Pennsylvania. Atlantic County is a LONG WAY away from Pennsylvania. Claims suggested above that she could not exit the interstate are just bogus. Entering the state might have been an honest mistake. Remaining in New Jersey and ending up on the other side of the state was not.

Quote:
Excellent defense, except for the fact that, well, yes, she did fully intend to go to Atlantic City, NJ (where the "J" stands for "Jersey").
Okay, let's look at this. You are saying she didn't enter the state by accident? Well, by golly, you are right! Atlantic City was her destination.

Quote:
She was headed to Atlantic City, N.J., in the early-morning hours to prepare for her son’s birthday party, which was being held three days later.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/17...n-gun-charges/

So it was no mistake that she was in the wrong state. In fact, she apparently planned on staying in the wrong state for several days.

I think the NJ laws are terrible. However, I don't see where she should be excepted from the laws based on the information available so far. She knowingly and willingly took her gun and her hollowpoint ammo into NJ and planned to keep it in NJ for multiple days. That is a violation of the law whether she realized it or not.

Heck I have been pulled over for speeding when I didn't realize the speed I was going wasn't legal in the location where I was stopped even though I had no intent to be speeding. Does that mean I should not be given a ticket or have to pay it? Yes, Allen is facing felony charges which are more significant and I understand that, but if the rationale works at one level, it should work at all levels and it doesn't work.
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:07 PM   #40
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This incident, IMHO, makes a iron clad case for NOT informing a LEO that you are carrying UNLESS REQUIRED to by law.

For those that believe ignorance of the law is no excuse and she should be convicted and sent to prison consider what the following events are going to happen to this young woman;
1. All of her financial asserts will be used up paying lawyer fees ( unless pro bono).
2. She will loose custody of her children and they will be placed in supervision of the state.
3. Upon release she will have to go back to Court to regain custody of her children. The State will likely oppose it until she completes whatever programs they want to require.
4. She will be unemployable in the medical field due to her felony conviction.
5. She will not be able to find a good paying job and cost of daycare will be too expensive.
6. She will be forced in live in low income housing with welfare and food stamps.
7. Forget about her children getting a good education.
8. Forget about her need for self-defense.

These are EXACTLY the type of people the anti's want to destroy. They win by destroying this woman's future and family.

And then they wonder why so many distrust the Government and hate the Police.

Last edited by BSA1; July 17, 2014 at 04:13 PM.
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:15 PM   #41
Midwest
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There should be a sign just before entering New Jersey that says.

"Your Gun Rights End Here"

.
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:21 PM   #42
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P.S. My son lives in Maryland thanks to the U.S. Army. I downloaded 8 pages of their firearm laws last night.
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:48 PM   #43
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As for informing LEO you are carrying, do you need to in PA?
If yes then she did what she was taught.
If no, then she was stupid on more than one occasion.
I dont know PA law so I'm just wondering why she said anything.

officer: "ma'am, you were driving a little goofy. What's going on?"
woman: "I'm sorry officer, I'm lost and I have a gun on me."
officer: "not good. Let's take a trip to my office."
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:51 PM   #44
igotta40
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The most important part of this story is missing in all the previous responses, the fact that she had hollow point ammunition in her possession. That is probably why she is looking at jail time.
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Old July 17, 2014, 04:55 PM   #45
taliv
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I think this comes down to state's rights (NJ) to have different gun control laws than PA or any other state for that matter.
as a last defense, it should come down to jury nullification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
Quote:
Jury nullification occurs in a trial when a jury acquits a defendant, even though the members of the jury believe the defendant to be guilty of the charges. This may occur when members of the jury disagree with the law the defendant has been charged with breaking, or believe that the law should not be applied in that particular case. A jury can similarly convict a defendant on the ground of disagreement with an existing law, even if no law is broken (although in jurisdictions with double jeopardy rules, a conviction can be overturned on appeal, but an acquittal cannot).

A jury verdict contrary to the letter of the law pertains only to the particular case before it. If a pattern of acquittals develops, however, in response to repeated attempts to prosecute a statutory offence, this can have the de facto effect of invalidating the statute. A pattern of jury nullification may indicate public opposition to an unwanted legislative enactment.
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Old July 17, 2014, 05:19 PM   #46
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Man but some of you are harsh!

Quote:
As a responsible gun owner, you gotta know the rules.
Oh, gimme a break here,,,
If we didn't hang out in a gun forum,,,
We probably wouldn't know the different rules either.

When I got back into shooting after a 17 year hiatus,,,
I had no idea that the gun laws in some states had become so draconian.

Six years ago when I started shooting again for fun and recreation,,,
I was absolutely flabbergasted at how the laws of some states had become so restrictive.

This lady may be the ultimate example of an Accidental Felon,,,
And don't any of you tell me that you go a week,,,
Without breaking a law that'd get you hung.

If you can truly state that,,,
I wonder how and where you live.

Those draconian laws were designed to aid the prosecutions of heavy criminals,,,
Not to be used to make an example out of an ordinary citizen,,,
The letter of the law provides for a heavy sentence,,,
The intent of the law should allow for leniency.

Slap her hand with a reasonable misdemeanor fine and let her go home,,,
Don't make her a prohibited felon because she got lost.

A District Attorney has a lot of discretion in these type of cases,,,
Let's hope this one isn't going after low hanging fruit,,,
Just because it's an easy score for his/her record.

Aarond

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Old July 17, 2014, 05:33 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by MachIVshooter View Post

Having said that, I'm operating under the assumption that the arresting officer is a total (expletive). We're not talking about a car load of misfits here; unless she said or did something to provoke him, any cop with a conscience would have informed her of the law, had her lock the gun away in the trunk and confiscated/disposed of the ammunition. One day, he'll get his.
A LEO I know has told me a lot of their discretion was removed when traffic stops started being videotaped. Stuff he could overlook before is now on record and he had to make an arrest in some cases so HE didn't get in trouble....

Unfortunately it appears she volunteered information without being asked. What is always being promoted here? Don't talk to the cops!
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Old July 17, 2014, 05:36 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Double naught Spy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
When I first heard of this, my first thought was that this could be THE CASE to take to court. A single mother, two kids, fine upstanding citizen - I say go for it!
You might think so if she was actually caught driving somewhere NEAR Pennsylvania. Atlantic County is a LONG WAY away from Pennsylvania. Claims suggested above that she could not exit the interstate are just bogus. Entering the state might have been an honest mistake. Remaining in New Jersey and ending up on the other side of the state was not.

Being near Pennsylvania has nothing to do with it, and neither does having made a 'wrong turn' or wether or not she had lace on her underware. It is about the anti-gun-rights laws in New Jersey. The suit needs to be brought up against those laws. She is being wrongfully harmed by unconstitutional laws.

Woody
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Old July 17, 2014, 05:41 PM   #49
H.m.B
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Originally Posted by Onward Allusion View Post
I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you'd violated a law in the last week.
I highly doubt it. However, even if true, I still stand on my statement that as a responsible gun owner, you gotta know the rules. Especially if you're going to carry!
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Old July 17, 2014, 06:11 PM   #50
DeadMoneyDrew
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Originally Posted by MachIVshooter View Post
Atlantic county ain't exactly on the PA border; I don't think mistakenly entered the state is accurate at all.
Indeed there seems to be something off about the reporting. Atlantic County is a good half hour drive from Philly.



That said, it is quite easy to enter NJ unintentionally from the Philly area despite that giant sludge puddle known as the Delaware River that flows between NJ and PA. On several occasions I have found myself driving into NJ by accident, thanks to Philly's convoluted bridge and interchange system.

Couple that with the fact that no one in their right mind ever goes to NJ voluntarily and the idea that this woman was in NJ unintentionally is at least plausible, if not probable.


EDIT: never mind, I see from another article that she was in fact fully aware that she was in NJ
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