Quantcast
Well, it finally happened (Saiga import ban) - Page 3 - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Tools and Technologies > Rifle Country

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 17, 2014, 03:46 PM   #51
Robert
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: June 7, 2006
Location: Texan by birth, in Colorado cause I hate humidity
Posts: 7,920
Folks lets stay on topic. THR is not "The Daily Birdcage Liner". Today's events, while tragic are not on topic for THR. Stick to the topic in the OP or this will be locked.
__________________
I step out of the shower wearing nothing but an AR-15 and a frown.

Superior gear will never make up for a lack of training or attitude.

When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.- Chief Tecumseh
Robert is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:08 PM   #52
Orion8472
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 8, 2008
Posts: 2,503
Thanks Robert.

So I will ask again:

What are some scenarios, as a result of this? Will you see the Saiga rifles soar in prices? If that happened, would that mean that people WOULD actually pay the higher prices?

I have one that I converted a while back, but as AK rifles go, . . . . it isn't THAT high in quality. Not like an Arsenal. I think that if prices got up there, I'd just buy something better quality.

I guess my point is that, at this point, we shouldn't get caught up in any "hype" or "price increases by sellers pushing fear".
__________________
ďWhat gets us into trouble isnít what we donít know; itís what we know for sure that just ainít so!" Ė Mark Twain
Orion8472 is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:13 PM   #53
Sam1911
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 28,305
Yes, Saiga prices certainly will rise. Prices only rise because people DO pay those prices. No retailer will sit on stock and hold his price firm if the stock isn't selling. So the price is set by what people DO pay. When the supply declines, eventually there's two guys who want that rifle and only one rifle to be had. The price rises because one guy will pay a little more than another guy to get one.

If you don't want or need an AK rifle of that sort, by all means don't get "caught up in any hype." That will help the prices stay low for the folks who do want to buy one of them while there are still a few left in country to purchase.
__________________
-- Sam

"...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)
-D. Stanhope

Sights Practical Shooters -- IDPA

My Knife Showroom
Sam1911 is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:13 PM   #54
HOOfan_1
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 11, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion8472 View Post
What are some scenarios, as a result of this? Will you see the Saiga rifles soar in prices? If that happened, would that mean that people WOULD actually pay the higher prices?
I think they certainly will go up in price.
I think some people may pay those prices, I think most will go find a cheaper AK built somewhere else...possibly already converted to the original configuration.
__________________
"The worst of all conditions in which a belligerent can find himself is to be utterly defenseless"- Karl von Clausewitz
HOOfan_1 is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:17 PM   #55
dogmush
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 7, 2008
Location: Tampa
Posts: 552
Well. As I understand it the "Made In Russia" was most of the allure of Saigas. So you will see the price of those go up untill the people that have to have a Russian AK have one. More people will decide that a Romanian or Bulgarian AK is fine. If I had to guess Saiga's will stabalize at about what an Arsenal goes for now. That seems to be the market's "high end desirable AK" threshold.

I would expect to see the most effect on the Shotguns. Does anyone else make import an AK shotgun to the states? I would expect to see either a Europian company trying to fill that gap or a (more likely a bunch of small) American companies building one. It's not like an AK is that hard to build.

When a Russian AK shotgun is ~$700 people will buy that. Take that away and an American AK shotgun in the ~$800-$1000 range will sell I bet.

Second effect, in the meantime KSG's and UTS-15's will get more popular, because a Saiga-12 was one of their direct competitors in the "high-cap Shotgun" realm.
dogmush is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:22 PM   #56
RX-178
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 9, 2008
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 1,608
Don't forget the MKA1919 and the other AR-15 styled shotguns now.
__________________
My webshow: http://altac6.blip.tv
My Twitter: http://twitter.com/ALTAC6
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/ALTAC6
RX-178 is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:24 PM   #57
Orion8472
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 8, 2008
Posts: 2,503
Already saw someone asking $800 for an unconverted 410 Saiga shotgun.
__________________
ďWhat gets us into trouble isnít what we donít know; itís what we know for sure that just ainít so!" Ė Mark Twain
Orion8472 is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:30 PM   #58
Ryanxia
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 18, 2010
Location: In the trenches for Liberty.
Posts: 3,061
I don't see the Saiga rifles getting very high but the Saiga12, Saiga20 & Saiga410 will creep up at some point. Might take a year but even if the Ukraine thing goes away I bet the firearms sanctions will stay.

There's really no competition to the Saiga12, the KSG and UTS are pumps for one and non mag fed for the other (and the KSG still has a pretty cheap feel to it, saw one crack already from regular range use). Being able to have a semi auto AK47 in a 12 gauge shotgun with a 20 round drum and a stack of 12 round stick mags lined up is pretty fun I can attest to.
__________________
Vote in November for your Pro Second Amendment representatives. State and Federal.

Join NRA Today!

Takes 2 minutes to donate to NRA-ILA https://www.nraila.org/get-involved-...re/donate.aspx
Bloomberg is spending, we can too. Every little bit helps.
Ryanxia is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:37 PM   #59
dogmush
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 7, 2008
Location: Tampa
Posts: 552
Quote:
There's really no competition to the Saiga12, the KSG and UTS are pumps for one and non mag fed for the other (and the KSG still has a pretty cheap feel to it, saw one crack already from regular range use). Being able to have a semi auto AK47 in a 12 gauge shotgun with a 20 round drum and a stack of 12 round stick mags lined up is pretty fun I can attest to

Which is why I think some American companies will start making them soon. As soon as the price on the Russian guns hits what it would take to profitably sell some American ones, someone's going to try to make and sell one. Free market.

From the looks of gunbroker they'll hit that price point about noon on sunday.
dogmush is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:40 PM   #60
DeepSouth
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 14, 2009
Location: Heart of Dixie
Posts: 1,934
I'm surprised it took this long, and ammo will be next. I bought about 4k of Russian junk to feed my AK when we put the first sanctions on them.
__________________
Proverbs 19:11...Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.
Participating in a gun buy back program because you think that criminals have too many guns, is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids...
DeepSouth is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 04:56 PM   #61
Orion8472
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 8, 2008
Posts: 2,503
Really, I don't like magazine fed shotguns. Saw a video with 10 rounds and it stuck down quite a ways. I'd rather have the Kel-tec setup, even if it is pump.

I have a 7.62x39 Saiga that I converted on my own and doubt I will sell it. . . . unless prices people are willing to pay for one gets crazy, then I may reconsider. But I really don't see that happening. People will just go Romanian.
__________________
ďWhat gets us into trouble isnít what we donít know; itís what we know for sure that just ainít so!" Ė Mark Twain
Orion8472 is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 05:04 PM   #62
Jackal
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 9, 2006
Location: Northwest Washington
Posts: 2,565
Quote:
I have one that I converted a while back, but as AK rifles go, . . . . it isn't THAT high in quality. Not like an Arsenal.
Most stamped Arsenal AK's ARE Saiga's. They are the same rifle, Arsenal just converts them. You just pay an extra $500-$600 for them to do it.

I just purchased a brand new Vepr .308 last month for $599 and last night ordered a Saiga .308 for $599 and a Saiga 12 Taktika for $799, I'm covered.
Jackal is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 06:55 PM   #63
burk
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 16, 2005
Posts: 269
There is already a Chinese copy of the Saiga shotgun, the Catamounts. I personally think they feel better, and are smoother out of the box than the Saiga's. They are also overpriced, although they do have a few more features like additional rail mounts. But they are over a grand at my local Gander, not a bargin by any means.
burk is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 07:24 PM   #64
Kynoch
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 19, 2010
Location: Central Coast of California
Posts: 1,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryanxia View Post
There's really no competition to the Saiga12, the KSG and UTS are pumps for one and non mag fed for the other (and the KSG still has a pretty cheap feel to it, saw one crack already from regular range use). Being able to have a semi auto AK47 in a 12 gauge shotgun with a 20 round drum and a stack of 12 round stick mags lined up is pretty fun I can attest to.
That's simply not true. There are other magazine-fed, semi-automatic shotguns on the market like the MKA-1919 and the BR-99. Out of the box many would suggest either is superior to the Saiga. Rebuilding new Saigas is what keeps companies like Tromix in business.

IN the right hands, shotguns with tube magazines are faster anyway:

Jerry Miculek vs. Clint Upchurch 3Gun Runs
Kynoch is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 07:43 PM   #65
dvdcrr
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 24, 2012
Posts: 806
I guess if I didnt want a saiga before I sure wont want one now. I dont buy just to sell so no reason to buy now.
dvdcrr is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 07:51 PM   #66
Jackal
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 9, 2006
Location: Northwest Washington
Posts: 2,565
Quote:
I dont buy just to sell
I do, and as often as possible. Any money I dont have to sweat/work for is a win.
Jackal is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 08:12 PM   #67
Sam Cade
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: September 9, 2005
Location: Rural Kentucky, surrounded by Amish
Posts: 5,172
The Kalashnikov Concern is 51% owned and controlled by the Russian Federation government. An oligarchic government that is hostile toward US American interests and the liberal democratic values that we in the west enjoy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/bu...-47s.html?_r=0
Quote:
In an interview in 2012, the former factory director, Maksim Kuzyuk, described sales in the United States as integral to the business. About 40 percent of the factoryís output went to gun buyers there, about the same number as bought by the Russian military.
I am perfectly fine with the current administration forbidding the importation of small arms from a hostile nation and hope the trade sanctions do as much damage as possible to the Kalashnikov Concern.
__________________
Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed.-…tienne de La Boťtie

Love THR? Help support it (and never see advertisements again) by becoming a Contributing Member.
http://www.thehighroad.org/payments.php
Sam Cade is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 08:17 PM   #68
Jackal
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 9, 2006
Location: Northwest Washington
Posts: 2,565
I wonder what affect this will have on ammo supply from Russia. Will Barnaul, Tula, Vympel, etc will be banned from importation as well under these new sanctions? Very curious....May have to max a charge card...
Jackal is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 08:31 PM   #69
M1key
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 18, 2007
Location: SW
Posts: 1,780
^^^same here

M
M1key is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 09:02 PM   #70
sappyg
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 862
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnbwt View Post

So for now, Izhmash is now persona non grata. As is SIG, but from the opposite perspective (our government being shady). The ban on the Ruskies is indefinite.

Things to remember in 2016; "Will you reopen trade with Russia/China as far as sporting arms?"

Congrats, Saiganeers, you now own valuable Norinco's... Anybody know if Baikal is effected?

TCB
Though I may not speak to the OPs concerns directly.....

You should have seen this coming. If you wanted a Saiga and don't have one you've waited too long. They are now finite. There are plenty of AKs. Just not plenty of Saiga AK's rolling around now. They will not be coming to a neighborhood near you.

I'm thinking all AK prices just had an uptick. Ammo and mags will do the same. I don't plan on participating.
__________________
"Courtesy should always be the rule at any range".. skylerbone
sappyg is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 09:43 PM   #71
barnbwt
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 14, 2011
Posts: 3,349
Hmm, I see people keep bringing up "geopolitical justification" even though I though this forum was not the place for that? I can dance, if we really want to go down that road, but let's not, m'kay?

I've never felt so good for having no interest in AKs whatsoever . Almost as aloof as my detachment from ARs during 2013. But one of the double barrel 45-70's, combo guns, and even the Drozd auto-BB-gun (which I'd heard is actually pretty cool) were "somewhere" on my list 'o guns. And for darn sure we'll never see the MP412, now

It is kinda funny to see this particular sanction imposed, considering the entire Saiga US export line probably only makes a few million dollars a year --hardly the lynchpin in Ivan's plans. I just hope this doesn't end with us bombing their factories like we did to the Yugo --now I'll never get those spare parts I need (and there's a lot of them )

"You should have seen this coming."
"Duh", and/or "hello?" But, but, they said he'd never pull this kind of thing through executive orders? Recent, repeated history would strongly indicate this is not the last effort on this front; the prez tends to pursue any line lacking opposition to excess. I honestly wouldn't put it past him to try removing sporting exemptions on cartridges by the end of this. They're pushing on 80%, armor piercing ammo, imports, parts kits, licensing... pretty much everything you don't need congressional approval for. Fancy that?

TCB
barnbwt is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 10:04 PM   #72
sappyg
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 862
[QUOTE=barnbwt;9548653]Hmm,

"You should have seen this coming."
"Duh", and/or "hello?" But, but, they said he'd never pull this kind of thing through executive orders?

TCB[/QUOTE]

I really don't put much stock in what they say anymore. I'm not even sure who they are. I don't recall any deal made with them or they.
__________________
"Courtesy should always be the rule at any range".. skylerbone
sappyg is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 10:14 PM   #73
macadore
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 21, 2007
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Cade View Post
The Kalashnikov Concern is 51% owned and controlled by the Russian Federation government. An oligarchic government that is hostile toward US American interests and the liberal democratic values that we in the west enjoy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/bu...-47s.html?_r=0


I am perfectly fine with the current administration forbidding the importation of small arms from a hostile nation and hope the trade sanctions do as much damage as possible to the Kalashnikov Concern.
I'm with you Sam.
__________________
No matter where you are in the world, no matter your race or religion, there is only one antidote to an armed bad guy and that is an armed good guy.

Tim Tucker
http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/ar...A15_hGuns11047
macadore is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 10:24 PM   #74
HOOfan_1
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 11, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,033
Do we import anything else from Russia? Has an executive order banned any imports that are not firearms?
__________________
"The worst of all conditions in which a belligerent can find himself is to be utterly defenseless"- Karl von Clausewitz
HOOfan_1 is offline  
Old July 17, 2014, 10:47 PM   #75
sappyg
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 862
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOfan_1 View Post
Do we import anything else from Russia? Has an executive order banned any imports that are not firearms?
Good question. Looks like their primary export is to the EU at ~45 percent. US makes up ~6 percent. Import from the US is negligible at best. There is absolutely nothing to these 'sanctions'. They are completely meaningless.

The EU has the problem. A big one. there is really nothing to see here.

Yet in the context of the OP. there is the issue of an alternate agenda perhaps. Which could prove more likely.
__________________
"Courtesy should always be the rule at any range".. skylerbone

Last edited by sappyg; July 17, 2014 at 10:53 PM.
sappyg is offline  
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.