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Old July 24, 2014, 11:03 AM   #101
Deltaboy
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DogtownTom will get my Business if I ever make a transfer purchase cause my local gun store wants 70 bucks. I can afford the gas to Plano for that amount.
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Old July 25, 2014, 01:54 AM   #102
TennJed
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Tirod, the whole basis of your advertising argument is faulty. Mass media is the internet now. Print ads and radio spots are not effective. Contrary to what you posted most social media DOES allow ffl to advertise. The biggest one out there, facebook has a ton of them.

Tabletop ffls do advertise, and they advertise in the most effective ways, social media, online gun realtors, search engines. If a business is still advertising in the yellow pages or newspapers they are foolish and wasting money
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Old July 25, 2014, 11:19 AM   #103
Tirod
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I appreciate that those of you who can afford the entry fees to see internet ads don't see any difficulty.

You aren't representative of the public as a whole. When I deal with owners who repair their own cars all day long and suggest they surf the internet for an explanation of what might possibly be causing their problem and their eyes glaze over, the reality hits home. Sure, I have internet, I've been using computers since 1984. They don't even own one. They don't have internet access, they aren't equipped with the skills necessary to even find the Google button.

It's elitist to think that the middle class existence some live is a blanket testimony for all in American life. That is exactly the problem we are having in politics today - a few think there way is the only way and for anybody who disagrees, well, there's the highway.

I also find it illogical to say that if hundreds of thousands of FFL's who were lying on their application forms are gone and good riddance is coming from someone who directly benefits from their absence. Even if they only contributed to 25% of the overall transfers, what the industry saw was a 25% increase at the remaining FFL level. Sure that's fine for those who are still in the business - you have the only means for us to get a new firearm at all. Gatekeepers tend to think they have some form of authority and too bad for those who don't want to use them, they either get along or move along.

Entirely why the gun buying public as a whole who remembers mail order purchasing views the whole FFL experience as volunteers contributing to government oversight. They may very well be making the best decision they can for their business, and we largely would agree with them, but they are decisions nonetheless an an operative part of a system of restrictions to limit our 2A rights. In the final analysis, the FFL, great guys that they may be, are unpaid traffic cops that can and will stop a sale by direct order of the government. It's all set up in the system, and the actual lethality of that consumer is only based on a snapshot of his past actions.

In the near future it will also include an assessment of their potential for lethal action, and the FFL will then become an agent of the government to commit prior restraint. Taking an arrogant view that the public's idea of how the system works is wrong and the FFL has the only correct view isn't going to make them more likely to get sales. It just increases the amount of frustration the public has in getting the firearms legally.

And because of that, more and more are going with 80% lowers to circumvent the entire onerous experience of having to kowtow to the process at all.

Overall, if the FFL thinks that the internet is sufficient for their advertising then they are deliberately ignoring a segment of the population that is firearm friendly but computer shy. They don't spend money on access and electronic gadgets, they buy guns as they an afford them. If much rather have them as customer and attempt to reach them than limit my business to those who send a half dozen emails a day trying to nail down a 15 minute space in their busy life to buy the Gun of the Month. Ignoring that market is exactly why there is less hunting in America today.
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Old July 25, 2014, 11:30 AM   #104
george burns
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How long does it take to get a haircut, 20-30 minutes, would you pay more than $50.00 for that? Same thing, If I did 20 haircuts per day at 50 a piece that's 1000 dollars.
That's what top salons get, but I bet most guys here would say that's too much, the transfer is even faster and less work, no talent to entering a name in a book. Tell me why again it isn't enough, the barber doesn't advertise either, other in the local penny saver.
Anyone can do this there is no schooling required, It seems like $25-30 dollars is the right price. As far as overhead goes, every business has fixed overhead, it's not costing you any more for rent electric or anything else weather you do 1 or 100 transfers, it's pure profit.
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Old July 25, 2014, 01:54 PM   #105
TennJed
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Tirod, we are talking about home FFLs and their fees for transfers. What percentage of these transfers do you think originate from the internet? I would say almost all of them.

So if someone purchases a gun online, dont you think they could find the ffls online also? Why do you need to advertise transfers in print ads? The transfers will originate online anyway. Do you really think someone would buy a gun online then go to the yellow pages for a transfer ffl?

Also it is not elitist. Go look at the numbers for newspapers and circulation and radio advertising. How many phonebooks are printed today compared to 15 years ago.
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Old July 25, 2014, 07:42 PM   #106
larryh1108
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Is it elitist to say that we assume that nearly everybody who buys a gun online also knows how to use the internet for finding a FFL? Is it elitist to say that if you don't have/use the internet then you are well behind the times? Or is it safe to say that choosing to not use the internet to save money while also buying guns and other things like cell phones, cable tv, air conditioning, etc., that you are making the choice to remain ignorant to what the 21st century is all about and how to make a life in it.

Yes, you have the poverty percentage but they seem to have their cell phones (govt subsidy) and you know what? Most libraries offer internet service free of charge. If you can't afford internet service and do not use free service at a library then you deserve to lose out on what the internet offers the general public. All you truly need to get the internet, on occasion as time allows, is to get a used laptop with WiFi (almost all have them these days) and go to a free hotspot like McDonalds or any number of free places to access the net. It's not hard and to cry that some poor fool can't get the internet because he needs his "meds" instead or his cigarettes or his bottle or whatever, well, it his choices. Yeah, there is the one in 500 who truly can't afford any luxury but if he already has a gun for self defense then he doesn't need a FFL.
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Last edited by larryh1108; July 26, 2014 at 05:19 AM.
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Old July 25, 2014, 09:13 PM   #107
dogtown tom
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Oh good grief.......

Quote:
Tirod I appreciate that those of you who can afford the entry fees to see internet ads don't see any difficulty.
There are those who cannot drive themselves to a gun store either.
There are those who are visually impaired, deaf or cannot read.
There are those who cannot understand or have limited understanding of English.

While those may present some difficulty to the buyer, they seem to be able to overcome those hurdles and miraculously find a dealer to do their transfer. I've yet to have a customer complain that I don't advertise in Braille, Urdu, Spanish or any of a hundred other languages.

Blaming the dealer for someones inability to afford a computer or internet service is a bit odd to say the least




Quote:
You aren't representative of the public as a whole. When I deal with owners who repair their own cars all day long and suggest they surf the internet for an explanation of what might possibly be causing their problem and their eyes glaze over, the reality hits home. Sure, I have internet, I've been using computers since 1984. They don't even own one. They don't have internet access, they aren't equipped with the skills necessary to even find the Google button.
I would argue that your customers aren't representative of the public as a whole:






Quote:
It's elitist to think that the middle class existence some live is a blanket testimony for all in American life.
Seriously?
Who the heck are you calling elitest? The school teacher who works four hours every day AFTER school on his gun business? Yeah, I'm elitest.






Quote:
I also find it illogical to say that if hundreds of thousands of FFL's who were lying on their application forms are gone and good riddance is coming from someone who directly benefits from their absence.
Illogical? No, I can't stand liars, cheats and thieves. If someone lied on the FFL application they should have had it yanked. What you are ignoring is how many of those former "FFL's" voluntarily gave up their FFL instead of getting legal.......ATF gave them the chance and they chose to not do so. They weren't actually engaging in the business of dealing in firearms from day one and lied to get their FFL, Shame on them.





Quote:
Even if they only contributed to 25% of the overall transfers, what the industry saw was a 25% increase at the remaining FFL level.
Irrelevant.
Ain't nobody stopping you or anyone else from getting your FFL. It's cheap, the application is easy and you yourself seem to believe we need more licensees...........knock yourself out.






Quote:
Sure that's fine for those who are still in the business - you have the only means for us to get a new firearm at all. Gatekeepers tend to think they have some form of authority and too bad for those who don't want to use them, they either get along or move along.
Getting a Federal Firearms License is easy. Why you think only "elitists" can get one is beyond rational thought.






Quote:
Entirely why the gun buying public as a whole who remembers mail order purchasing views the whole FFL experience as volunteers contributing to government oversight.
"Volunteers"? Not hardly. I do it as a job to supplement my income. As Federal law requires an FFL to deal in firearms I don't have a choice. If you dislike the "FFL experience" then DON"T BUY GUNS FROM LICENSED DEALERS.






Quote:
They may very well be making the best decision they can for their business, and we largely would agree with them, but they are decisions nonetheless an an operative part of a system of restrictions to limit our 2A rights. In the final analysis, the FFL, great guys that they may be, are unpaid traffic cops that can and will stop a sale by direct order of the government. It's all set up in the system, and the actual lethality of that consumer is only based on a snapshot of his past actions.
Don't like it? Then elect someone to change it. When you apply for your FFL, you agree to abide by all Federal laws as well as state and local. If you think that makes us "an operative part of a system of restrictions to limit our 2A rights".......what does it make you? (considering you pay taxes to support the very same government)






Quote:
In the near future it will also include an assessment of their potential for lethal action, and the FFL will then become an agent of the government to commit prior restraint.
The tinfoil is getting laid down in multiple layers today.






Quote:
Taking an arrogant view that the public's idea of how the system works is wrong and the FFL has the only correct view isn't going to make them more likely to get sales. It just increases the amount of frustration the public has in getting the firearms legally.
Huh? Point out were anything I posted in this thread is wrong. If it is I'll stand corrected.................but POINT IT OUT.





Quote:
And because of that, more and more are going with 80% lowers to circumvent the entire onerous experience of having to kowtow to the process at all.
Onerous? That's funny.






Quote:
Overall, if the FFL thinks that the internet is sufficient for their advertising then they are deliberately ignoring a segment of the population that is firearm friendly but computer shy.
Sure we are
Funny, but I've yet to meet someone at a gun show, gun range or on the street tht has said "Dang! I don't have the internets and have no idea how to find an FFL!"






Quote:
They don't spend money on access and electronic gadgets, they buy guns as they an afford them. If much rather have them as customer and attempt to reach them than limit my business to those who send a half dozen emails a day trying to nail down a 15 minute space in their busy life to buy the Gun of the Month.
Sorry, but if they can't afford internet service............how much $$$$ they gonna spend on a gun? How often are they gonna buy a gun?
Your argument doesn't hold much water.



Quote:
Ignoring that market is exactly why there is less hunting in America today.
Hogwash.
Advertising by elitist kitchen table dealers has no effect on participation in hunting.

Spend thirty seconds on Google and you find the causes are habitat loss, complicated hunting regulations, other forms of entertainment, societal changes, demographic changes, and the mass media.

Nowhere will you find the decline of hunting to be attributed to a lack of advertising by kitchen table gun dealers.




.
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